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Ah yes, the Japanese weapons.
A pet theory of mine is that they get so much attention because the Japanese held onto feudalism far longer than the colonial powers. As such, the colonial representatives attached some romanticism to Japan and the Samurai.
Something similar laid the foundation for the troubles Iraq has faced to this day, if Adam Curtis is to be trusted.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/entries/2989a78a-ee94-...
A pet theory of mine is that they get so much attention because the Japanese held onto feudalism far longer than the colonial powers. As such, the colonial representatives attached some romanticism to Japan and the Samurai.
I think that's a part of it. I think that the other commenter is also correct in that the "far east" has some kind of romantic draw in the western mind.
There's something compelling about people who would willingly die before violating their principles. Even if I don't like it, even if I don't agree with it, I can respect it.
Even when we were at war with Japan, there was a kind of grudging respect. Sure, they were dehumanized in the wartime propaganda and depicted as incompetent or inept in our media, the west was so terrified of them that we interned American citizens who were as little as 1/4 Japanese.
Is it not also possible that they get so much attention because they are genuinely interesting?
They are genuinely interesting in part because they're "Far East" and seem foreign.
With that said, knowing Western designs of weapons is also extremely interesting. The progression of simple sword -> sword+crossbar -> sword+ crossbar + ring guard -> Rapier -> Basket-hilted sword says a lot about Western Martial Arts (aka: Fencing).
At some point, people figured out that grabbing the crossbar was more comfortable and more precise. So additional protections needed to be added to the top of swords (finger-rings / sweepings).
The full anatomy of the Rapier is astonishing. Every part of the weapon serves a purpose.
Even then, Rapiers were mostly status symbols for the rich. Weapons of War were far more simple and practical. (Well... not always: Landsknechte Zweihander == lulz. They probably discontinued that weapon because it was too expensive, heavy, and unweildly. But man, what an awesome looking sword )
Zweihanders/montantes/whatever you wish to call them were extremely effective and not nearly as heavy as you might think. In general, even the largest swords didn't weigh much more than about three kilograms (and thus were lighter than rifles and some polearms), and the hands were far enough apart that you had enough leverage to move quickly. If you poke around on youtube for people sparring with such weapons you'll see that they're as quick as most other swords (and have an advantage in reach).
On the article itself, while it's a nice list, it perpetuates some myths about the weapons in question (e.g. that katana was in someway superior to western swords -- high quality specimens on either side would probably be pretty closely matched), and has some fairly glaring admissions (e.g. the yari (Japanese spear) which was one of the most common weapons among footsoldiers for a good deal of Japan's history).
Agreed for the most part.
I guess Zweihanders were ultimately still "too short" for real warfare though. Practically speaking, by the late 1500s or so, people only used Halberds and Polearms (ie: English 18-foot Pikes and whatnot). So perhaps it is more accurate to say that Zweihanders were not "unwieldy enough". In any case, Zweihanders only saw use in a period of one century or so... from the late 1400s through the mid 1500s.
With that said, Pier Gerlofs Donia's Zweihander was 6.6kg (~15 lbs) and 2.15m (7 feet) long. Zweihanders definitely could go above and beyond 3kg.
As far as Yari, yes, that is the most glaring omission in the article. Fortunately, the Naginata (arguably a kind of Yari) has representation.
Assuming the sword attributed to him is actually a war sword (not a ceremonial one), and noting that he was apparently superhumanly strong and large...
As for the disappearance, I think it had more to do with improving firearms making heavy armoured shock troops impractical, and armies becoming much larger things mostly composed of musketeers with relatively limited training (rather than the smaller armies of very well trained professionals like landsknechtes). The pike disappears fairly soon after, when infantry switch to using bayonets to ward off cavalry.
>They are genuinely interesting in part because they're "Far East" and seem foreign.
They don't "seem" foreign, they ARE foreign.
Unless you happen to live in the far east.
Western culture is obsessed with novelty and originality. In the West, one of the worst things you can say about an artist's work is that it's a mere reproduction of something that came before. In Japanese culture, reproduction of classics is held in high esteem. For this reason, the art of creating most of these weapons and using them is still very much alive. Western martial arts and arms rapidly fell into obscurity and oblivion once firearms took over.
Timing may also be a factor. Most western martial arts fell into obscurity and then oblivion centuries ago, while many of these obscure Japanese weapons were still in use well into the nineteenth and even twentieth centuries. Even if Japanese martial techniques had not been valued and maintained, they still would have been in living memory when chambara flicks became popular. For this reason, their portrayal in film has few rivals in Western cinema.
There were a few western martial arts that survived to modern times. Boxing was one, and fencing was another. Fencing certainly had it's heyday, both on the Shakespeare dominated stage and in the golden age of Hollywood thanks to great fencer/actors like Basil Rathbone, but the style of fencing practised was only appropriate to a select few historical settings. Fencing is descended from a duelling discipline and isn't really appropriate in a battle setting or even a fight between commoners. Films where it is appropriate are made so infrequently that actors rarely study fencing at all, let alone enough to become masters.
This is probably why Hollywood embraced Hong Kong fight choreography so enthusiastically in the seventies. It allowed them to fill in the holes left by the death of most Western martial arts with something that was flashy and graceful. Audiences hungry for more Eastern martial arts have naturally consumed a lot of films made in Hong Kong and Japan, and this probably fuelled their curiosity about Japanese weaponry. The fact that Hollywood had to import fight choreography probably also gave many the notion that Eastern martial arts were superior to anything in the West, when the truth is that it was simply better maintained, thanks to cultural values and the relatively late dominance of firearms in the East.
A fantastic graphic novel that covers these and others (such as the bell warden's third son's sajinrai [1] in vol. 4) is Lone Wolf and Cub, which was written by amateur Edo historians and effectively cemented them as legends of the manga community.
It is a great work which inspired many others including Frank Miller's Sin City and Ronin, and Collins' Road to Perdition. I personally think that it is on par with Watchmen (arguably the greatest graphic novel, and one that tops most lists) - certainly no other works had the same impact. Perhaps because it is in black and white, very long, and originally in Japanese, it's nowhere near as famous.
[1] "a blinding compound comprised of a mix of ferrous sand and strychnine nitrate"
Some notes:
- You may be familiar with tetsubi in the West as "caltrops."
- I've seen yawara for sale on keychains and cell phone straps for young women.
- The sasumata still exists today, minus the nasty barbs around the haft; every public school has one or two to be used for subduing intruders. I was (un?)lucky enough to participate in a drill once -- they did a pretty good job of subduing me and pinning me down!
I shudder to think of living a life where I would have to employ weapons like these.
Ancient Weapons of Japan are definitely interesting... as are weapons around the world in general!
The most interesting to me are the various non-lethal (erm... less-lethal) weapons that have been invented. The less-lethal weapons around the world give insight into the minds of Police across all ages.
Today's weapon of choice for Police is the Police Baton... which is basically a Japanese Tonfa. But seeing the Japanese Jitte, Sai, Kusarigama, Manriki-kusari, and Sasumata... you can see how Police from previous ages were focused on:
* Bashing (Tonfa, Manriki-kusari)
* Disarming (Jitte or Sai)
* Binding (Kusarigama or Manriki-kusari)
* Pinning (Sasumata)
----------
Western Society had Armor (ie: Gauntlets) for catching weapons. Armor in general is also a major advantage in grappling / pinning foes. I'm not really aware of any weapon explicitly built for disarming... since a Knight could always just grab the Peasant's Sword with his gauntlet.
But the "Anti-Peasant Weapon" has always been the Mace or the Flail in Western Cultures. Both are similar in concept to the Tonfa and Manriki-kusari: smack people with a blunt object. The goal is subjugation and intimidation. Spinning weapons (Flails) are intimidating but ultimately less lethal than a Sword or Spear.
Knights and Soldier statues use swords and spears: weapons of war.
While statues of Kings and Princes are armed with Flails and Mace: symbols of "less lethal" weapons of law enforcement.
All weapons tell a story. The Kuwa (Japanese Hoe), Kama and Kunai are peasant tools... and tell a story of inventive rebellion. Seeing a master Kuwa or Kama fighter says that "anyone can fight, even lowly farmer peasants... even with farm tools"
Much like Pitchforks and Torches, except Japanese Martial Artists have honed the peasant weapons into a martial art in of themselves.
The Polearms tell a story of the horrors of battle. The multi-point Halberd is shaped to stop a horse (spear tip that widens to stop momentum), pull the rider off a horse (hook), and break shields (axe).
Japanese Yari are similarly diverse as western polearms. The different Yari designs give the greatest insight to warfare in Japan. (I bet you the Jumonji yari was used to stop charging horses. The massive crossbar is there for a reason).
Hozu hi Yari and Kama Yari are similar to Halberds, in that they are clearly designed for "single weapon / multiple uses".
Just some food for thought.
Disarming: Sword breakers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parrying_dagger
Interesting. And it looks almost the same as a Sai / Jitte as well.
I have a (possibly) dumb question. Did the Japanese also have a prohibition on the ownership on easy to use ranged weapons for peasants the same way the Europeans did (specifically crossbows)?
I'm not an expert here... but I've never heard of Japanese using crossbows at all. Which is strange, because China and other Far East nations definitely had exotic crossbows (Chu-ke nu / Repeating Crossbows), but I guess they never really made it to Japan.
This Stack Exchange seems to confirm my assumption: http://history.stackexchange.com/questions/22806/were-crossb...
One answer notes that the wood in Japan made it difficult to build crossbows. The wood used in Japanese Longbows has distinctive properties... but does not have the right properties for a compact handheld crossbow.
Seige Crossbows (OYumi) were used, since the large size got around the material issues with Japanese wood. But handheld crossbows had issues getting constructed there.
What about muskets? Was the peasantry prohibited from owning firearms?
Firearms were expensive for a very long period of time. I doubt the peasantry would be able to afford it. Japanese did use muskets in war... but "peasant weapons" were typically simple farming tools (hoe, kama, kunai etc. etc.)
They didn't mention bo-shuriken[1], which is a spear-shaped throwable metal "dart". The throwing technique is in some ways similar to the way a katana is swung. A circular motion, taking the hand behind the wielders shoulder and unrolling straight in the opponents direction. As there is no rotating motion involved, these are short range projectiles. The ones I saw were top-heavy and had tail feathers. Checking the YouTube videos, some users instruct a more knife throwing grip. However, the technique explained to me was leading with the back hand side, releasing the dart from the palm[2] towards the end of the motion.
[1]: https://www.google.com/search?q=bo-shuriken&safe=off&hl=en&b...
It's a difficult method of throwing to learn, but if you can master it it has the advantage that you don't have to worry as much about distance to the target. With the traditional spinning throw, you need to make sure the knife will reach the target at a point in the turn where the blade is pointed toward it.
I think it's probably a much more appropriate throw for use during hand-to-hand combat. My understanding is that the shuriken was primarily intended as a weapon swordsmen could use to gain an advantage by distracting their opponents.
> Japan’s most famous weapon needs little introduction. Japanese blacksmiths’ method of repeatedly heating and folding the steel made a katana’s sharpness and strength unique among the world’s swords.
And you can stop reading here. The author probably has not done due diligence on his research.
I think that people are downvoting you because they're not sure what you're getting at or have an issue with tone, as I think I know what you are referring to here:
http://www.thearma.org/essays/hype.htm#.Vchr7RNViko
The Japanese blacksmiths' method of repeatedly heating and folding the steel was actually a way of countering the poor quality of the raw material they had, according to some other sources I've read but cannot find right now.
I assume that you didn't include this information because you know a lot about the topic and thought it was all common knowledge, but I'm not sure that it is.
So I downvoted the comment mostly because it was dismissive of the entire article seemingly for the terrible crime of ... not going out of it's way to mythbust the 'Katanas Are Just Better' trope? I think the article as a whole was interesting and even if you concede parent's point on forging (see below), the rest of the article had a lot of information.
Also is the article even wrong? The forging does create a very sharp edge (your own citation and other ARMA articles like Katana vs Longsword [1] go into this) and yes a very hard core. Yes the primary point is to remove impurities but why does the article become worthless for glossing over this, a point which is likely not interesting to casual reader looking for basic info and pictures of new weapons?
"So I downvoted the comment mostly because it was dismissive of the entire article"
- I thought that was an issue of tone.
I don't think it was dismissed because it doesn't bust the 'Katanas Are Just Better' trope, but because it actively perpetuates it.
> Also is the article even wrong?
- I think so, but I'm far from an expert. The quote says that the Katana's sharpness and strength were unique among swords, when in reality the picture seems to be far from clear-cut. Strength in particular involves some degree of flexibility, which Katanas did not tend to have (I think). The quote also says that a katana derived its strength and sharpness from the folding process - I think the article you link doesn't say anything about that. It says that it has a very sharp edge, and further that a curved edge is better than a straight edge for slashing.
FWIW I really enjoyed the original article, there seem to be some interesting parallels between how polearms in Europe and these chain weapons and thrown weapons in Japan developed from ordinary tools, and in such different directions (in some cases). I also think that tone might be a good reason to downvote a comment, I just thought the topic that the comment was hinting at could be quite interesting.
The major features of the katana are the blade cross section, which is concave on either side of the cutting edge, and the tempering process that made the core of the blade into strong, resilient steel while the cutting edge remained a more brittle type that could better retain its sharpness.
These two properties, combined, made the blade a good cutting weapon against unarmored opponents.
Meanwhile, at that time, Western swords had largely abandoned cutting and bludgeoning in favor of stabbing. Generally speaking, anyone you really wanted to wound with a sword wore armor--unarmored opponents were typically killed by other types of weapons. And the easiest way to get through armor was ramming a point through a weak spot. When firearms became more cost-effective than swords, the state of the art in blades was simply frozen and romanticized.
Practically anything you can make out of the right modern commodity steels (1060, 5160 spring, 9260 spring) is as good as or better than historically accurate reproductions using era-appropriate manufacturing. If you take the leaf spring (5160 spring) from an old car and re-forge it into a sword, you can do better than a katana. You simply have access to better metal.
And likewise, if you stamp out a few hundred identical pinky-sized stainless steel bits and used wire to make lamellar out of them, you're probably going to be better armored than the best-equipped knight was before the gunpowder age. And shinier.
Like most military technologies, swords were "perfected" only after they became obsolete. As such, the best sword ever made is probably one that was made this year, as a movie prop or display piece, and it will never be used in actual combat. But if you took it back in time to 1000 AD....
It was perpetuating the trope actually. Not not mythbusting it.
Forging does not create a sharp edge. The micro structure that gives sharp edge is created during the heat treatment.
This seems excessively nit picky. Is the 'heat treatment' technically part of the forging? Technically no but for the layman's idea of forging it probably is ok to say yes.
Did that one line in the article perpetuate the trope? In the sense that it means 'merely wielding a katana makes one a superhuman fighter' I would say 'clearly no' but in the sense of 'katana is the coolest sword' perhaps. Did katanas have world renowned sharpness? I would say yes. World renowned 'strongness' (which can have a lot more meanings)? Notsomuch.
Damascus Steel is cooler... and probably sharper and stronger.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus_steel
Its basically the Katana folds, except you can explicitly see the folds between multiple kinds of steel. Damascus Steel is also the stuff of legends, because it is literally a technique lost to history (although people claimed to have reverse engineered it).
Furthermore, some evidence points that true Damascus Steel had carbon nanotubes and cementite nanowires strengthening the blade (possibly created through the unknown ancient forging process). Not bad for Steel made in the BC eras.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/28/science/28observ.html?_r=0
The katana making techniques (pattern welding, differential HT) were not unique. So is the performance. Claiming otherwise is perpetuating the myth. The Japanese sword got its "world renown sharpness" the same way magnum .44 become the "world's most powerful handgun" after Dirty Harry. Also swords are not very sharp even with highly polished edge. Too high angle. If you want to see something really sharp - take a walk to some of the better restaurants.
I disagree, forging has a very straightforward meaning, heating the metal to red-hot, and hammer away to form it. Items are typically then quenched in oil or water, which cools steels quickly enough that they are quite brittle. Heat-treating them then tempers that, allowing the smith to achieve whatever level of hardness (with brittleness) or flexibility (with loss of hardness and thus sharpness). The Japanese smiths do seem to have gone to great lengths to forge-weld steels of differing hardnesses together in making blades - I was amazed to learn that the curve of the katana results from quenching a blade that is forged basically straight, but has much harder steel along the edge (which can't shrink as much as the more or less iron of the spine, due to carbides).
What's wrong?
The techniques in the making are not unique, the performance too. There were a lot of fine swords made everywhere in the world using similar methods. Europe used them IIRC. And we have wootz (which is entirely different beast, but also very high performing steel).
Woah ... pressure points (Nardi) is the same in Tamil too ! South Indian martial art form covers the use of Nadi (pressure points/nerves) to disarm/disable opponents.
I think this would have reached Japan from mainland China. Also some research and folklore suggests that Bodhidarma was in fact a Pallava Prince who went to China and spread the marital art forms.
However hard evidence is quite scant esp. in India.
That is not the word "nardi." It's the name Nardi, as in Thomas Nardi, the author of a magazine article cited as a source at the end of the post.
Hmmm. I might have got over excited there! Should have become suspicious when google din't give me anything related to "Japanese + nardi"
The Tekkan and Hachiwari remind me of warhammers and claymores that were used against armored opponents in European warfare. It seems once you rely on armor someone has to always figure out a way to deal with it. In Europe, it was the "spam in a can" approach that won out. The hachiwari looks more like a "peel the shell" approach. Either way it seems to be an effective approach.
Very impressive. I was not aware that ancient Japanese weaponry were so...thorough.
Medieval weapons in Europe were very thorough as well but they don't talk about it as much.
Swords and bows are unique? Edo period is ancient?
Hey guys, off-topic and forgive me beforehand but I know there was an article about ramen and soups very similar to those in that page a month ago but I am unable to find it not even in google.
If any kind soul knows the url it'll be greatly appreciated. I love japanese food in all its presentations.
Btw, that site rocks for japanese info.
A Guide to the Regional Ramen of Japan ?
Zatoichi's cane sword is not listed.