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One of the weirdest things I've found about America as someone who grew up in Europe is racial segregation.
When I look on Facebook pictures of my european friends, they tend to be in a big mix of colors. Sure, there's more Indians at an Indian wedding in London, but you will see the little gang of white/east asian/black kids there too. Go to a majority (ie white) wedding and you will see they have a bunch of Indian/Chinese/Black etc friends.
When I look on the Facebook pictures of American friends, they are quite clearly color segregated. I really find it odd that out of maybe 300 guests at a wedding in SF, only a couple are not from the same minority.
America is also the country where I've found the strongest racial stereotypes. In Europe it's not really the stuff of comedians anymore, but when I went to a comedy night in NYC, the guy looked at me and said "Why aren't you doing homework?". Funny, sure, but it says something about what the audience already believes about various people.
Segregation is often self-imposed. As an Asian-American, I often can't relate with white people. What they worry about and enjoy do nothing for me. This started from a young age (what is allowance? what is getting grounded? hobbies?) and although I have many close white friends, on a whole they are the minority in my friend groups. The only way this segregation has to do with race is that stereotypes are exactly that, true for a distribution. Another way to say this is that people I end up relating well with tend to come from the same experiences (namely that of growing up Asian-American).
In addition, I'm often super surprised at these comments. The US is many orders of magnitude less accepting of racism than Europe. Europeans on the whole speak freely of their negative opinions of Muslims and gypsies. In the US, any comment mentioning race carries immediately with it a negative connotation. This is exactly why it is the breadstuff of comedians. There is no humor in something that is simply accepted as "truth" as much of European racism is.
I hate speaking anecdotally, but just as a credit to my experience with racism in Europe as an Asian-American, my time there was filled with experiences ranging from ignorance to aggressive defensiveness. Most of this can be explained away as just inexperience due to Europe's immense racial homogeneity. Often they would treat me as a fob which was an acceptable assumption. But this just goes to show how behind Europe is in the racial conversation (they don't even have racial experiences!)
It's strange. I'd echo the sentiments expressed in the parent about the UK when it comes to Australia, too. Seems like people identify with their race before their nationality in the US. We don't have "African-Australians" or "Asian-Australians" here. Everyone is just Australian.
>I often can't relate with white people. What they worry about and enjoy do nothing for me. This started from a young age (what is allowance? what is getting grounded? hobbies?) and although I have many close white friends, on a whole they are the minority in my friend groups.
Interesting. Do you personally think that if a white person were to express similar sentiments, he would be guilty of racism?
In Europe, capitals tend to have a much less racist behavior. If you go to Paris or London, for example, then I agree with you and it's true that you have less segregation and a tendency not to have strong racism (but even then it depends of which minority you're part of... Muslims tend to have a harder time even in capitals compared to all other minorities)
However, if you go to the small cities, then racism is very prevalent. My wife is asian and when we're in small cities in France (Nantes, Rennes, Rouen, Toulouse, ...) it often happens that people speak to me but behave as if she were transparent. They just completely ignore her as if she weren't there.
It also shows in term of votes with smaller cities tending to vote for parties like the French FN.
Saying europe has better race relations than america is misguided. you can't compare the two. america has 300 million people and is 70% white, 15% black, 12-20% latino and 6% asian. for comparison, the UK has 60mm (about the size of california and new york) and is 87% white, 7% asian and 6% black, for example. the UK is also what we call an urbanized ountry, in that a large proportion lives in cities, which is where most of its people of color reside.
it is easier to integrate urban, small countries with manageable percentage of immigrants. e.g., Sweden (population 10mm) versus america (pop 300mm). when you have a large land mass, enormous population and very high rates of immigration and naturalization (let's not forget that France and Germany do not allow as much naturalization as USA), the task of integration is that much harder and more complex.
Funny how in America they classify Arab people or more accurately native Arabic speakers as white when it is actually not accurate at all and it just shows how ridiculous these designations or labels are.
At least, let them get their racial terms or classifications right before they could start muddying the water hype up racial tensions between communities.
It's funny, but I would have said the exact opposite. Not sure what part of Europe you've lived in, but I found the UK to be very segregated compared to New York. There's a sense that anyone was welcome in Britain, but immigrants could never really be British.
> In Europe it's not really the stuff of comedians anymore,
The BBC has plenty of comedy where racial stereotypes are commonplace. Even the great lefty Stephen Fry has them on his QI show, as he makes jokes about 'dagos' and Alan does his shitty Mexican "speedy gonzales" joke accents. Occasionally you'll see a Welsh celebrity arc up over the incessant sheep-shagging jokes as well. I can't speak for European standup per se (or continental fare), but I can speak to the BBC tv episodes that get shipped over here.
One thing that stood out for me was that I remember seeing John Oliver call out Dara O'Briain on Mock the Week for making racist French jokes (on the smelly/don't wash stereotype) and now Oliver has his own show in the US, he's constantly using racist stereotypes in his skits. Racial stereotypes seem to be pretty hard to get out of comedy, even amongst the more highbrow comedians...
I too have noticed the same. While the part of Europe I come from is completely white for various reasons, nobody really cares about race. If anything we'll make jokes about ethnicity. But they're only jokes, no systemic segregation happening.
Then you come to the US and it's all about race race race and more race. Even in what is supposed to be their most progressive city - SF - it's just about race race race. Even street comedians/entertainers will play the race card every two minutes.
Honestly, it's boring. I understand that US likes to codify class issues as race issues, but ... stop. Call them class issues, and address them. Turning class warfare into race warfare doesn't help anyone. You are born with your race and you can't change it. You are born with your class, but you can change it.
Focus on that part.
> While the part of Europe I come from is completely white for various reasons, nobody really cares about race.
Maybe because in a homogeneous society, there's no reason to talk about race.
> Then you come to the US and it's all about race race race and more race.
Maybe because unlike the parts in Europe that you mentioned (which were completely white), there are different races here.
> You are born with your race and you can't change it. You are born with your class, but you can change it. Focus on that part.
People here are NOT discussing race because they want to change their races. They are discussing race because just like sexism, homophobia, etc, racism against anyone (even if they're doing well professionally) is something to highlight, acknowledge and work towards getting rid of.
I'll certainly want to be in a country that actively talks about race than a country that doesn't. If you think not talking about race means there's no or less racism in Europe, then just look at soccer / football.
> I understand that US likes to codify class issues as race issues, but ... stop. Call them class issues, and address them. Turning class warfare into race warfare doesn't help anyone. You are born with your race and you can't change it. You are born with your class, but you can change it.
This is a very European attitude, to the point where four European countries have gone so far as to remove the word "race" from their lawbooks[0]. The problem is that removing actual racism isn't as easy as simply erasing the word, and by removing the word, we remove the ability to take effective action to combat racism.
This isn't turning 'class warfare into race warfare'. Masking racism in this way makes it impossible to address, and thereby perpetuates racism.
[0] e.g. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/feb/12/francoi...
[off topic: Im on the New Yorker tech team]
We just launched a feature called "remind to read", that lets users send themselves a reminder email about content. Depending on where you trigger the service, the reminder email will send you back to where you were.
To see it while reading, scroll up. A module appears in the bottom righthand corner.
It launched last Thursday. I'd love to hear everyones thoughts!
Thank you for doing such great work. The New Yorker is one of the few publications I pay for in print and will continue to do so for quite a while. You guys do ads right, and your site isn't bloated.
Thank you!
We do our best to keep it this way.
If you come across any annoyances, please reach out!
What would be very useful is an "update reminder" feature where if some information in the article is updated (maybe a couple days or a few years) later, a reminder is sent.
Thats a great idea!
Have you seen newsdiffs?
On my browser, it pops up and immediately down. I can't ever use it.
[browser version removed]
Will fix!
Thank you
Just noticed that while reading this very article - I think it's a good idea, relatively unobtrusively implemented.
>>In the eyes of some, Asians in America are, Lee writes, “perpetual foreigners at worst, or probationary Americans at best.” If Asians sometimes remain silent in the face of racism, and if some seem to work unusually hard in the face of this difficult history, it is not because they want to be part of a “model minority” but because they have often had no other choice.
A racial epithet was thrown at me and my family in parting by a homeless person last year while crossing the intersection in my neighborhood, which we shrugged off. This quote prompted the memory again, and I think that Asians in Western countries may remain silent also because causing a scene is, in general, considered "unseemly" when little is perceived to be gained. I originally felt this to be a rather rational response for anybody else (regardless of their race), but when placed against the backdrop of the Immigration and Nationality Act of '65 mentioned in the article, I'm considering a different response the next time, although I sincerely hopefully there won't be a next time.
Makes one almost laugh good-naturedly at serious and systematic Canadian Québécois policies devoted to keeping the French language alive in Canada. I much rather prefer intense debates around language over race.
EDIT: I grew up in the Middle East, where racism is overt. In Saudi Arabia (for example), your salary for the exact same job is to a large extent determined by your passport nationality. I grew up expecting it there; but it always give me pause when encountering racism in a Western country.
Racism against Asians in North America is really puzzling. It is excessively common to hear female acquaintances, even asian ones, say that they would never date an asian guy. Compound this with comments that belittle asians in movies, TV shows and in just about every conversation, I sometimes wonder why they keep so quiet. Then I remember that racism is a complex and delicate question, and that our society is still incapable of dealing with these issues in 2015.
ps: As a child of bill 101, I do not really understand what you meant by that comment about French in Quebec.
I suggest that you let go of this incident as it is not worth it to get all worked up over a casual insult especially from a homeless person as you'd be dragged into their mud and they'll win by experience.
I recall some time ago I was walking down the street when a panhandler approached me and asked me for money and as usual I ignored him and when he noticed that I paid no attention to his request, he told me he hopes to see me burned alive to which I replied with a fake smile and just went on thinking how he could thought that insulting me would win me over and make me change my mind and pay him, and that's it. 15 seconds later, I had better things to preoccupy my mind with end of story.
Anyone know if there is a place where whites are a discriminated against minority? Zimbabwe?
As a male WASP, why would you bother with what a homeless person thinks of you? I too ignore the angry hateful ones. They hate me too, though they may lack epithets for me. It's a pointless unwinnable argument, and you'll never look like the good guy, yelling at a homeless person
I moved to the US in 1992 at the age of 9. It took me more than a decade to feel like an American. To feel like I belonged. Took just a few racist comments from my co workers to take that feeling away. Yup, probationary American at best.
That really sucks, dude. I'm sorry your coworkers are such assholes. My situation was similar. I came to the US in '94 when I was 3 years old. Being one of very few Asian kids in mostly White schools was not fun. But thankfully, I haven't personally experienced any overt racism since graduating from high school.
Racism against asians is delicate. It's not like overt and violent racisms black people face, where it's easy to recognize and be dealt with.
Take one example.
If you denounce your own color, you are quickly accepted and praised for being funny and unbiased; if you speak up about the injustices, you get labeled as too sensitive, confrontational and quickly cast off.
It's funny to see so many Asian Americans hating their own kin, they just unconsciously internalized those behaviours because doing so gives them social credit.
On this topic, I think Malcolm X had some wisdom on the phenomenon of self hate and mental colonization.
> Who taught you to hate the texture of your hair? Who taught you to hate the color of your skin? To such extent you bleach, to get like the white man. Who taught you to hate the shape of your nose and the shape of your lips? Who taught you to hate yourself from the top of your head to the soles of your feet? Who taught you to hate your own kind? Who taught you to hate the race that you belong to so much so that you don't want to be around each other? No... Before you come asking Mr. Muhammad does he teach hate, you should ask yourself who taught you to hate being what God made you.
> You go into China and find a Chinese man that believes in Jesus and ask him to paint a picture, he’ll paint Jesus looking like a Chinese man. You go up to Alaska and find an Eskimo that believes in Jesus and ask him to paint a picture of Jesus, he’ll paint a picture of Jesus looking like an Eskimo. You come back here to America and find a white man that believes in Jesus he’ll paint Jesus looking like a white man. Go inside a Negro church who believes in Jesus and ask them to paint a picture of Jesus, they’ll paint a picture of Jesus looking like the white man. That’s what you call integration.
Depending on where you live in the states, you can see many different scenarios play out. California, specifically Silicon Valley, is definitely a melting pot. I was born and raised in the Bay Area and have seen differing scenarios play out.
During high school living in the East Bay, an african american friend (who came from money) was regularly followed and occasionally pulled over because he was in a nice car and driving through nice neighborhoods (where he lived).
Working in a semiconductor startup many moons ago, a lot of the Chinese hardware engineers kept to themselves and didn't interact outside their group.
Living in Santa Cruz, the "minority" population is primarily Hispanic. I can't speak to the schools, but many many keep to their groups and don't make an effort to integrate into the community as a whole.
Maybe it is dual sided racism, but ethnic groups that live in large numbers and don't become part of the overall community and instead build their own island for me is just as problematic as a society that isn't open to others joining and becoming part of the whole. This is not to say that culture and history should not be preserved, practiced, etc. but moving somewhere and excluding yourself from the community as a whole is also problematic.
Everyone forgets the flip side of the integration problem. The majority group needs to be welcoming of minority groups or else they will seek out their own. Interracial friendships, dating, etc are still not the norm. A lot of that is due to subtle exclusion of other groups.
> California, specifically Silicon Valley, is definitely a melting pot.
LOL, that's a good one. I always thought California was the engine behind this systematic racism since it's no longer politically correct to have racial bias in Federal Law to restricts citizens' behavior. The media is the only way to influence their mind.
I, like I suspect most Americans, do not see Arabs, Sikhs or Indians as "Asian". Isn't this more of a Britishism?
Yes as a result of the empire if a British person and British Asians says Asian they mean for the Indian sub continent or those Asians ethnically cleansed from Africa in the 60's and 70's
You do know that India is in Asia, right? Also, Sikhs more often than not are Indians. Sikhism just like many of the world's other religions (Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism) was born in India.
Where do you live?
This story hits close to home for me. Up until recently this year, I pointed to many things in my life except myself as the reason for me not being a self-actualized Asian American.
My internal heckles followed the pattern of "I'm XYZ, so I can't [fit in with this social group, be attractive to her, etc]" where XYZ included:
- too short
- Asian
- not interested in sports
- a gamer
- too poor/cheap
One day I realized I can't change how I feel at the moment, but I can choose what to do in reaction. If I buy into the feeling's line of reasoning, I'm keeping my situation the same. If I'm honest with myself, I'm usually not thinking such things because I'm happy with the status quo.
Complaints about the status quo are useful if they lead to action, but until then they're an energy sink.
I grew up as the few asians in a hispanic/latino whatever neighborhood. Yeah, there are racism when you're the minority.
There are racism everywhere, you learn real quick to either work with what you got or cry about it. Maybe white have it better.
It doesn't matter, you work with what you got and ignore all the hater. America can always be better but it does give you the ability to move up in class wise and a great country.
Oh but you know what? I knew an Asian girl attending my university. She was born in the 1990s, and her family photo is like a college text book. Bunch of mixed races, white, black, asian, and hispanic. Turns out her uncles and aunts marry outside of their race.
It's all good.
I am Indian. Honestly I don't really care about some white American calling me cow worshiping heathen. (which I am).
What I find remarkable is the law and policies which are racist in nature. Asian Americans are never considered a minority in the popular discourse where as Blacks and Hispanics are considered as minority.
But given all that, I do think it is in America's interest to control who comes to USA and who does not and there is nothing wrong in passing laws that might prohibit any kind of migration to the country. What matters however is that when a personal lawfully gets naturalized he/she must be treated as just any other American.
Sadly, that uneasy agitation I felt after reading the article was mollified when I read the experiences of others in the comments.
I am not the only one, not alone. Thank you for sharing your experiences.
> say that they would never date an asian guy
as an asian guy, let me just say that quite frankly, the solution to this is to 1. be attractive, and 2. don't be unattractive. lift weights, dress well, have cool hobbies, make money.
girls say a lot of things due to social pressure but when the chips are on the table you can't negotiate attraction. it's subconscious.
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10454989 and marked it off-topic.
I mean...the point is that even the 'subconscious' is socially trained. In an environment where every 'People's Sexiest Man Alive' is white 30 years running (fine, Denzel got a token shoutout), where your only Asians in movies are comic relief or simply straight up belittled, there is a very real Eurocentric training.
And what constitutes a cool hobby? If attraction is subconscious (or love at first sight?), what does it matter if I play semi-pro badminton vs semi-pro lacrosse?
There is much more at work than 'being attractive' when that standard of beauty's defined by forces way outside your control.
As another Asian-American guy, I want to second this. Up until earlier this year, I felt paralyzed and victimized by American society. That is, I felt passively punished for not looking like Brad Pitt, Justin Beiber, or other American sex symbols. I had achieved enough financial success that I felt like the only major thing "missing" in my happiness was a relationship or healthy dating life. And I blamed external circumstances for that.
Then I realized, by analogy, that I was perpetuating my own situation. The biggest turnoff for me wanting to recommend a friend for employment was hearing him complain about how unfair the job market is, how worthless his university education was, and so on. In the decade since I've graduated from college, I've witnessed friends jump around across companies and careers and I've witnessed other friends stay put and complain. Complaining can be useful if it leads to action, but it's also a strange and unfortunate local minimum for many people.
To build off of beachstartup's point, it's worth considering your objective when you complain about something like social inequality. Is your complaint motivated by a desire to be happier and more fulfilled, or by a desire to see a fairer world? I can shamelessly say that I just want to be happier, so I'm going to try to play the game instead of trying to change it. For now.
I agree, and that's what I tell myself and others who feel they are disadvantaged in the dating world (due to their skin color or not).
However I feel this is also a short-term and selfish way to go. There has to be a way to make the world a more equal place, even if you and I don't live to see it.
I am not sure of the point here. I think we have to help those that need help first, I mean what are we going to do start pushing for increased aid for those of Irish descent.
People often forget that systemic racism against Asian Americans is also racism. That's part of the point. That you can do everything right and have things go reasonably well, but have it all taken away from you because of the color of your skin.
Like the physicist who was innocent but had his family dragged through an espionage trial because the officials didn't even bother to consult experts in the field.