Item — HN Reader

"you are basically on the same level as a non-working immigrant family of four"

That's an exaggeration. A non-working family (not sure what immigrant has to do with it) does not have access to the same quality of life than a working family with salaries of 60k. Sure, health and education-wise they both enjoy the same benefits, but for sure not in housing as you mention in your third point.

2 comments

If he is accepted into wellfare (and the last number that I saw around 700000 had been accpeted) it is comparable. I posted it on HN and got downvoted. I will post it again:

60k is 2800 € net per month. A refugee on welfare would get approximately 400 per adult plus 300 per kid plus rent paid (and free insurance). For a family of four this is 1400 Euro. Let's assume 1000 for rent in a city. This is 2400 so basically the same that you have.

If you post this again and again please get your facts straight first: 2800 € is the amount for a single person. A married sole-earner in a family of four gets generous tax benefits resulting in 3300 € net (insurance included) plus 380 € child benefits. Substantially more I'd say.

Agreed. But please also consider the extra benefits for welfare recipients. Extra clothing support. Generous checks to buy their first furniture, laundry machine, TV. Maybe even a computer (not sure about the computer).

Fact is, even as a full working engineer your available money is not significant different. A policeman with two kids and his wife not working has less money as such a family living on welfare. In fact, he would qualify for subsidiary income.

And we are not talking yet about refugess with 4 wifes and 23 kids.... http://www.rhein-zeitung.de/region/lokales/westerwald_artike...

As a rule of thumb 2000 € can be used for four persons for initial furniture etc. After two months the 60k earner is ahead. Clothing is already included in the rates you posted (there is some additional clothing support if you get another, lower rate).

Police earnings are a bit complicated but basically everyone with kids gets more than welfare after initial training. Some young police officers from Berlin (rightfully) recently complained that they are below that but this is the exception.

Policeman compared to welfare (Sorry, Link in German): http://www.huffingtonpost.de/2017/03/13/gewerkschaft-polizei...

This is exactly the case I referred to in my comment above. As the article clearly states this is very exceptional and rightfully a problem.

Can confirm that sometimes I have the impression that my SO's cousin is living quite a nice life (housewife, three children, husband's blue-collar salary) compared to us (childless, combined 6 digit salary, can't afford a 3 bedroom house without signing a 30+ year mortgage).

> A refugee on welfare would get approximately 400 per adult plus 300 per kid plus rent paid (and free insurance).

Does it apply to refugees only, or to everyone?

That's the minimum amount you need to live with dignity in Germany as defined by the Federal Constitutional Court and thus applies to everyone although foreigner's are subject to certain restrictions. Many refugees get less than that.

60k€ results in ~2900€/month after taxes for a married person. A decent appartement in a big sout/west german city for 4 people will easily cost you 1250€ or more. Subtract further costs for transportation etc. and your living standard is indeed not mich higher than that of a undemployeed family with free housing and welfare benefits.

But gotta feed them "refugees", eh?

I live in a decent apartment in a big south/west German city, I have a 60k+ salary and yes, I pay a lot in taxes and for rent. There's NO way I have the same quality of life as an unemployed family, while they might get some money from the state it's nowhere close to a 60k salary.

Now, where I do see the problem is that most of the housing is owned by people renting it out (check out Germany in this list [1]). My whole building is owned by the same guy who I guess lives quite a relaxed life out of my rent, while producing nothing. If you want to fight the increase in living costs, I'd start there.

I have no problem with feeding and sheltering refugees.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_owne...

> Now, where I do see the problem is that most of the housing is owned by people renting it out (check out Germany in this list [1]). My whole building is owned by the same guy who I guess lives quite a relaxed life out of my rent, while producing nothing. If you want to fight the increase in living costs, I'd start there.

Because it's tax smart. If you own real estate, all repair, maintenance costs etc. can be deducted from your taxable rental income. On the other hand, if you live in a property you own, all maintenance costs are paid from your after-tax personal income.

Then close that tax loop. Easier, better, and more effective than blaming immigrants.

Its not a tax loop. And if the laws were changed, the costs would simply be passend on to the tenants, be it directly vor indirectly.

Laws do no change market realities.

Yes, we probably should ensure people don't starve to death in a modern society. What's wrong with you?

Besides crime and different values (women, gays, open society), Germany is one of the most dense populated countries and has 80 Million inhabitants.

How many immigrants do you want to accept? 1 Million? 10 Million? 100 Million? 1000 Million?

Based on the population and fertility rates of the middle east and especially Africa, 1000 Million (1 Billion) would be a number that is not impossible. But, don't you see a problem there?

I don't see a problem here

I agree that "the west" has a moral obligation to ensure people in other parts of the world are not starving to death. But: a 20-year old from Tunesia or Morocco is not starving to death in his home country, nope.

Where are you from man?