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Wow. I really feel like this was a missed opportunity to close the gap. I feel like some very unreasonable thing are being said in a reasonable/polished way.

>> A lot of people have used that argument in defense of what he wrote, as evidence that the memo was not harmful or hostile to the women he worked with. When I walk into my job at a tech company, how do I know which of my colleagues thinks I’m an outlier among women versus someone who was hired because I’m female that doesn’t deserve the job they have?

So it sounds like we're implying that anybody who presents facts to your coworkers that might enable them to come to stereotypical conclusions has made a hostile work environment? I find it absurd that an environment is hostile because "maybe people are thinking X." I would think hostility would require some form of visible action.

>> I disagree with his use of science and data to convert opinions into facts. It seemed like he cherry-picked research that agreed with his views and didn’t seek dissenting research or opinions before sending the document to internal Google groups.

Isn't the whole point of science is to move the debate away from opinion to fact. His views are certainly much more in line with the facts that what I've heard from his opponents. For example, I don't see anybody disagreeing that women score higher on "neuroticism" measures (wikipedia agrees).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_humans#Psyc...

>> There’s a difference between “let’s have a discussion” and “let me tell you what’s up, all you wrong people.”

Great, but that has nothing to do with this. The other side certainly would never extend him (or me) that civility. This is a power struggle and I don't know why we're pretending it's not.

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As an aside, this whole debate has made me realize that I was kidding myself if I told myself SJWs were on the side of equality. They are on the side of politically advancing their own in-group-alliance (which doesn't include most minorities, nor the minority most in need - the lower class).

They have no interest in fact because they aren't trying to achieve a clear vision of a better world, rather it's because they are playing politics where facts are just another form of weapon.

The only reason they have so much power in tech (and not say, finance) is because we are altruists/optimists ourselves and tried to see something greater in SJW political games.

2 comments

This issue is much hairier because discrimination in the work place can be criminal for companies, and employees are representatives of their employers. Whether or not he crossed the line, he was close enough that he got the axe.

> I feel like some very unreasonable thing are being said in a reasonable/polished way.

That's a decent description of Damore's memo.

> I would think hostility would require some form of visible action.

Nope. My dad's tech workplace in the '70s was hostile to black people even though there was almost no visible action.

> Isn't the whole point of science is to move the debate away from opinion to fact.

Yes, but cherry-picking results and selectively quoting articles isn't rigorous science. There is a long history of misusing science to promote preconceived agendas (tobacco industry, new age quantum garbage, eugenics, etc).

I apologize, I just can't understand the last half of your post. It sounds like you're saying the women who wrote this article are part of a powerful in-group-alliance?

>> Nope. My dad's tech workplace in the '70s was hostile to black people even though there was almost no visible action.

What do you mean? They didn't hire, fire, promote, or speak differently?

>> Yes, but cherry-picking results and selectively quoting articles isn't rigorous science. There is a long history of misusing science to promote preconceived agendas (tobacco industry, new age quantum garbage, eugenics, etc).

This is fair. Except from my side, I feel like I'm seeing cherry-picking by the other side. I studied psychology, and in college nobody seemed to dispute innate differences between men and women (I was taught of some in infants).

So since both sides feel the other is cherry-picking, we can either A) fire people for it B) talk it out like scientists.

>> I apologize, I just can't understand the last half of your post. It sounds like you're saying the women who wrote this reply are part of some powerful in-group-alliance?

I'm not suggesting there is an alliance of women. I'm suggesting there is a politically motivated core (SJW is the closest word I know for the group) at google and the larger public. The fact that this group is treating science as politics explains why:

- They are trying to fire people for ideas (because it's US vs THEM in their heads)

- They are deliberately lying about what Damore said (because it's politics, so no holds barred).

- They are not at all expressing a coherent vision of what "equality" would look like if they could make all the rules, but instead fighting for their own minorities (and disregarding Jews, Mexicans, ugly people, fat people, tattooed people, and all the other groups that certainly are slightly discriminated against)

> They didn't hire, fire, promote, or speak differently?

Sure, now prove it. Other than the lack of black engineers in his department and some comments made at non-work-related functions, there wasn't anything you could point to and say "a-ha!" It can be insidious.

> nobody seemed to dispute innate differences between men and women

I think everyone agrees there are innate differences. At least, the women who wrote this article do as well.

Now, do those innate differences make women inferior engineers? (I know, Damore never explicitly said this, but he implied it. Maybe it's just poor writing? I wish he'd run his memo past some interested women before posting internally so he'd have a chance to clarify.)

The "core" of which you speak is basically Google's exec staff. It's not a conspiracy, it's just the company.

They fired Damore because, whether it's due to unfair implications or just bad writing, his presence had become hostile to a good percentage of Google's workforce. He's not going to be in a position to manage many female engineers after posting that.

Personally, I wish Google could have condemned the memo and let HR handle it. Their reaction seemed over the top. Ah well, sometimes life isn't fair, even for white male engineers. :)