One of the most depressing things I realized when I learned to count cards, and confer upon myself a small but meaningful advantage in the game of Blackjack, was that the casinos simply ask you to leave if you win too much. That put an upper limit on the rate at which one could win. The folks who figure out slot machines have a much better time of it because it takes longer for the casinos to figure out they are losing money.
Anyways, after playing with them for a few years, I was horrified to learn about their 60% tax on consistent winners that they have dubbed a "premium charge".
Found some sort of edge to exploit and reap profits?
Betfair doesn't even care to talk to you to ask you what you are doing, they will just charge you 60% of your winnings once you go over a certain limit. [0]
[0] https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2011/jun/29/betfair-premiu...
I was actually backed off from the first place I went to after I learned how to count cards while I was losing. If the pit boss or dealers know how to count themselves and identify you as a counter, they want no part of it. In most cases, they'll either "flat bet" you (tell you that your initial bet is your maximum), or they'll tell you that you cannot play blackjack there. Actual barrings usually don't occur until the second or third offense.
The online bookie will indeed ban or limit winning accounts or anyone they suspect of cheating or betting smartly. Anyone betting large amounts dumbly gets taken out to nice dinners etc.
The company that bets on horses bets using exchanges, because bookmakers would tend to kick them out. The abstract of this paper is pretty much 101 to those guys who do some advanced stuff I can't talk about to make predictions.
Good luck!
I have always thought about learning to count cards, instead of say learning a new language.
Can't you just go to another casino until they kick you out, and repeat?
Do you actually make money now that you can count?
Winning $900 split across several different bookmakers is absolutely nothing in the sports betting industry.
William Hill, one of the companies that the researchers claim restricted them is a multi billion dollar company. They aren't sweating small time bets like this.
EDIT: I noticed that the screenshots they used as proof their bets were restricted are for bets on very minor football leagues (Australian semi pro football), its common for betting limits to be lower for games that don't see a lot of betting action & is not proof enough to me that the bookmakers lowered their limits globally
Bookmakers are on the lookout for exactly the kind of betting behaviour described in the paper: people only betting on the top price, and shopping around for the best odds. If they see that you are only grabbing mis-priced offers, you are unlikely to be a profitable customer to them.
The bet size doesn’t really come into it. Just look at it from their point of view; why keep a customer who is costing you money, however little it is.
That's... interesting.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-22/soccer-clubs-obvious-m...
Isn't this like literally one of the oldest tricks in the book? I remember reading Reminiscences of a Stock Operator, which talks in part about early 1900's bucket shops, and the same stuff was there even then. Similar stuff is also mentioned in market microstructure textbooks with market makers on one side and informed traders on the other side.
Is rigged even the right word here? It might be, but did the bookmakers have a responsibility to keep accepting their bets? Is it different from claiming that casinos are rigged?
(Will Hill, Interwetten, Betway are exactly the type of bookies that will close your account as soon as they catch on)
Yes, the odds can be exploited and there is a whole bunch of services offering picks, but eventually the sportsbooks catch on and close your account. The sportsbooks that welcome professional players are few and far between and their odds are on point.
Suppose your book is balanced, and you have $25,000 on each side. Then a new bet comes in, size $250,000, on one side of your book -- what to do?
Or, more simply, when you set your initial line, what do you do when a known sharp immediately wants action on one side?
Once you start beating them ( being profitable in value prices ) they will simply close/ban your account. Nowadays, it happens extremely fast ( in a day or a few hours, depending on your moves ). It's a well known tactic, and in practice, you cannot do anything about it ( other than keep opening new accounts in new names ).
Try beating a betting exchange.
If you want to make money you have to bet against, and be able to beat the books that know what they are doing - The high limit, low margin books like Pinnacle, SBO, IBC et al will happily take you on.
> During that period we obtained an accuracy of 47.% [sic] and a profit of $957.50 across 265 bets, equivalent to a 8.5% return (Table 1, Figure 3).
For some reason the "ok but how much did you ACTUALLY MAKE?" is always my favorite part of this kind of business or economics literature.
I disagree with this assumption and I think they have painted themselves into a corner because of it. To illustrate, imagine charting win rates against bins of price-implied-chances. $3 horses win roughly 33% of the time, $4 horses 25% for example. It resembles a noisy 1:1 linear relationship. Do the same for your selections and your line will be noisier, but crucially you're not taking bets where the price is worse than your estimate. This can leave a window of profitibility when you subtract the two, even when you are less 'accurate' as measured by win rate or KLD or other measures.
The goal is profitibility, not accuracy. The problem with including the odds you are betting against as a feature for your ensemble is that it dampens that window. If you're right about your selections, you'll bet less and win less. * If you're concerned about the volitility that comes with being less accurate, there are better ways to address that.
I've been doing this for a couple of years and in many ways it's a dream side-project. Location independent, no customers, automatable, and in some jurisdictions tax-free. It can be a little lonely at times though. I would love to chat with anyone else applying tech/math to beat the bookies. Sorry for the throwaway, I'll put a contact in my profile.
How's that contact information coming along? :-)
If anyone would like to collaborate with some model building get in touch. I already have a large db of most of the stats you’d ever need and some okay but not amazing models for most major sports.
The authors' regression left an intercept or 'adjustment term' of 3.4% - 5.7%. For a perfect bookmaker, this intercept term would be equal to the overround. The number calculated unfortunately averages that overround between different bookmakers and at different times (overrounds often decrease over time). It might be more effective to adjust for the actual overround of each market sampled, i.e. divide each price by the sum of the inverse of the prospects.
They appear to use a flat betting strategy, and the threshold to bet or not was selected based on profitibility. I was simplifying in another comment when I said profitibility should be the goal. In reality it's utility you should be optimizing for. Nobody wants a ultimately profitable system that reads like an EKG, they want a high sharpe ratio. The paper's results are actually very good here, but the trend could be lifted and stabilized further by betting proportionally to expectation, or by explicitly optimizing for such.
Most big betting companies were customers. They all continuously sent their updated odds to us, and we would broadcast to the other companies. They would react to the change based on certain rules and send new updated odds back to us. This would then converge.
The inefficacy comes from promotions, company X always wanting to have odds .1 better than company Y etc.
Edit: Not sure how it works now, but: https://www.betradar.com/ and https://mts.betradar.com/
Asymmetry of information has never been the bookmaker’s most powerful weapon. The book is.
Those who are successful at it accept this reality. They grumble and make peace with it - paying the super taxes and liquidising markets where they’re asked to.
Ultimately however, while it’s interesting to see how they do some of this (and there are plenty of practices not covered in the paper, I assure you) it’s a bit like complaining the DM won’t let you do something in dungeons and dragons - you’re dicing with the god of your domain so the rules can change at any minute.
Bookmakers sell excitement / entertainment - the thrill of the potential win is the product, and costs approximately 10% of what you can afford to stake.
Next: how do you mask this behavior to not be obvious. Once you have a betting stratetgy the real difficulty is turning it into one that isn't obvious.
I prefer para-mutual rather than a house deciding the odds. It is a more free-market approach. It has been used in horse racing, but the takeout has been too large which makes it hard to be profitable.
Although it still wouldn't have prevented their accounts from being limited.
The bookmaker wants to balance his book for each game to make sure he makes a profit no matter what the outcome is. To balance their books they might give better odds for an outcome than what a statistical model might suggest.
But what difference does it make if the bettor who helps them balance their books is a consistent winner or not?
Do they prefer to give these "good" odds to people who are losing money long term?
If you play a tight-aggressive game in venues the pros avoid (anyplace with less than $2/hour comps in Vegas) you can do decently. Not get rich, but make a few hundred in an afternoon.
https://science.slashdot.org/story/17/10/21/1744218/data-sci...
I worked for a monopoly bookmaker and spent a fair amount of time looking at how they work. Our turnover was $2.6bil/yr with $150mil profit in a country with less than 10 million people.
So, Some things to give you guys a bit more context. 1. There are two types of bets. Fixed Odds and Tote. - Tote is a pool based betting system where the odds can change after you have placed your bet. The odds are calculated automatically based on the distribution of bets on the options available. Typically the house will keep 50%+ of the total pool as profit and distribute the remainder among the winning punters. This is a very high profit betting system that the book keepers are trying to keep alive. It's dying off at a pretty rapid rate though. - Fixed Odds Betting (FOB) is where you get payment on the odds you lock in at the time of placing your bet. Most betting now is FOB.
For the sake of responding to various points other respondents have made I will focus only on Fixed Odds; especially as Tote is only used for horse/dog racing.
2. How do the odds work? For us, we had university students who'd manage the books. They had software that showed them how much risk/leverage they had and what the guaranteed profit was. They can set "bet limits" and manually approve (or deny) any bet that was greater than the bet limit. Most of the time they would have open websites from other bookies and copy the odds from theirs as they change. It's quite popular for bookies to just copy each other manually.
For Live/In-Play betting the book keepers will watch the event and manipulate the odds as things occurred. Either using their own knowledge or copying from other gambling sites. Again, the process is completely manual at the back end.
There is a move for organisations around the world to consolidate on their sources of odds (e.g. using a common back-end odds distribution platform); but ultimately there is still a large manual component to changing the odds, especially during live play.
3. How do they make money? On Tote, they take 50%+ of the total pool before creating dividends.
For Fixed Odds, they balance the books. They change the odds to always ensure it's in the houses favour. We always aimed for 10-15% profit on events with fixed odds bets. Home players/athletes will always have much lower odds because of people's tendency to bet with the heart.
They deny bets. The bookie doesn't have to take your bet. For large bets they will often push back an offer to you at a lower rate than advertised to ensure their books stay balanced. For live/in-play bets they'll delay your bet until that odd is no longer available ensuring your bet is not accepted.
They have A LOT of different betting options where only a few will actually win. People tend to bet with their hearts and the number of options are setup to basically ensuring the bookie is profitable.
If you win too much, they shut down your account. They have no obligation to deal with you. Their goal is to make money and they see your gambling as a way you "enhance your enjoyment of the event", not an attempt to make money. So there isn't a large tolerance for people who do make money.
4. How do I (the punter) make money? Surprisingly, you can consistently make money gambling.
Don't bet on Dogs/Horses. Even the top 1% of punters barely break even. They're profitable because of the kick-backs the bookies give them for having high turnover (>$1mil/yr).
Find a sport you know a lot about that supports in-play betting. It's going to be you vs a person. So if you have indepth knowledge of the sport you'll be able to see changes in flow and make winning bets before the bookie notices.
FWIW, I bet on League of Legends. During the LOL Worlds I can make 2500% with >90% win rate. Now, I'm only winning a few $k total so nothing significant.
That's all I can think of at the moment. Happy to answer any questions you have.
A bookmaker's job is not to accurately reflect odds of occurrence, but to ensure a balanced book of liabilities. There are many books covering this going back hundreds of years and is the principle discovery of those who gathered at Tattersalls coffee shop on the Strand and invented modern bookmaking (via horse racing), and for whom there is named an enclosure on all 55 British racecourses to this day.
The tissue has to be "over-round", (i.e. the probabilities they represent have to add up to over 1.0, or 100%) because sometimes a market will look at the prices, see that the odds are very much in the favour of a selection and act accordingly. As such, the WoM causes a market to move.
This is not news. If you have a reasonable idea of true odds and you are being offered different odds, Kelly (who worked with Shannon - the creator of Information Theory), established the optimal stake to bet at each stage. A substantial amount of research has been done on Kelly Criterion and its application because it underpins many a hedge fund strategy: it works for fixed odds games, fiscal markets and bookmaker markets just as well.
There are trading opportunities here, and there is a wide community of people who look to exploit inevitable market moves using exactly this technique: establish average industry odds, look to where betting exchanges are and bet accordingly, moving out of the market when a profit comes to you.
The bookmakers don't care - you've helping get turnover up, and they know increasing turnover through the market is the best way to get balanced liabilities.
On a horse race, they might offer prices that give up an over-round of 110%-130% most days, but on Premier League Football which has a much, much higher turnover, and WoM is far more predictable (due to team loyalties coming into play), over-rounds can be as low as 102%.
These markets are therefore more likely to provide value to the authors' methods, however I note they are making the majority of their bets between 5 and 1 hours before a game, and therefore to some extent are able to factor in team selection and some of their results might be the result of a market inefficiency: team line-ups aren't announced until 60 minutes before kick-off.
Now, here's two major downsides:
1. Bookmakers will eventually end up closing their accounts, because winners are never welcome long-term.
2. There is a reason why successful gamblers don't publish. Even Thorpe who invented card counting and blackjack basic strategy realised publishing (which was his academic need) ultimately caused him to need to do something else: he ended up privately and quietly running a hedge fund.
These guys are probably finished within 2 weeks of this paper going around, and what's more because now a whole ton of people will go to implement this method, bookmakers will adapt and simply move from tissue to industry average as quickly as possible, whilst limiting even more players to reduce liability exposure (as has been the style in recent years).
EDIT: I only skim-read the paper when I wrote the above. Now I've read it a little more closely I am even more convinced there is nothing to note here, and also, their accounts have already been limited or closed.