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by mstank·8y ago·view on hn ↗
Is there such a thing as societal post-traumatic stress? I'd love to see data about how people's experience and perception of events change over time. Also the generational impact monumental events like the Berlin wall have on a groups psyche.

Speaking from experience, I see differences between my friends that lived through the balkan wars and those who emigrated before them.

5 comments
If you have the chance to go to Berlin, hit up the museums. There's quite a few which will give you some of the perspective you need. The impact of the wall (see Checkpoint Charlie) is couched in the context of the holocaust, the SS, and the rise and fall of Naziism (see Topography of Terror, Jewish Museum, Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe). Then these things must in turn be understood in the context of Germany's transition from empire to republic, unification, the Protestant reformation, and WWI (various other museums).

I highly recommend spending a few days in Berlin and just seeing this stuff in person. Hotels are comparatively cheap and English will get you far. Just seeing this stuff helped immensely for me, and you can make interesting connections when you see everything in one place.

Even small slices of this history are fascinating, like the different policies of urban renewal during different periods of Berlin's history—neighborhoods being torn down for modern construction, the building of Berliner Dom, the competition between East and West during occupation both w.r.t. large public works and housing.

I can highly recommend The Story of Berlin on Kurfürstendamm. It's laid out in chronological order, so it gives a very powerful sense of the turmoil that Berlin has experienced.
Another thing to do is one of the bike tours here: https://www.fattiretours.com/berlin There are different tours but they have a lot of overlapping content. It was really cool to have a bike trip weaving back and forth between East & West Berlin.
It is a great place to visit for historical significance. A reminder please don't try to 'bring home a piece of the Berlin wall' .. At the worst its real and you're moving some history from their home to yours. At best its fake and you're buying some random busted cement.
> At the worst its real and you're moving some history from their home to yours.

Over a hundred thousand tons of wall, and most of it was sent for recycling. I'm pretty sure breaking one of the many anonymous segments into fragments and selling them off is an action that greatly increases the historical reverence being given to it.

Life on the wrong side of the wall was mostly boring, sometimes unfair, and, in some cases, certainly inhumane and traumatic. But the collective experience was probably far less of a burden than the balkans in the 90s, or Syria today.

The Second World War and the Holocaust had a much deeper effect on the German psyche, one that to this day defines its thinking and action. None of the other similarly-sized countries has embraced European unification with such insistence, or rejected nationalism and militarism to such a degree: The glorification of the military on display, for example, during yesterday's Super Bowl, would be unthinkable in Germany.

That mindset is summarised in sayings like "If it happened once, it can happen again", or "not guilt, but responsibility" (for today's generations.) It's probably the reason why Germany managed to take in 1.5 Million refugees with the hard-right not getting more than 15% in the next election, while around 15,000 refugees each were apparently enough (among other things) for xenophobia to triumph in US elections, and Brexit.

As a German I can only confirm this assessment. However, I would not downplay the danger of our hard-right political spectrum.
If you look at the Fed Rep of Germany, but Austria and Switzerland are also German-speaking nations and should be counted. Austria was part of the Nazi regime, and the Switz did their banking. Austria's been far more hard-right than Germany, and Switzerland far more isolationist, e.g. not joining the EU.
The Swiss have been isolationist for five centuries, which is why they did everyone's banking in the war.
I think that's an erroneous reading.

Let's say you are five years old and one day you witness the neighbor across the street get into an argument with another person, then you watch as the neighbor takes a machete they'd been using to clean up brush in their yard and starts raining down blows on the other person, brutally murdering them in public right in front of your eyes. This happens, the whole neighborhood knows about it, but nobody does anything, the neighbor is never arrested. The neighbor never does anything similar ever again, and you grow to 80 years old living in the same house across the street, relaying the story to your own children and your grand children as surely others in the neighborhood do as well. Yes, day to day, hour to hour, life would seem superficially normal. But also every day, every hour, every moment, every thought would exist beneath a cloud. There would be no way to deny the reality of the state of the world and your relationship to it. You could not ever forget that a murderer lived across the street. It would effect every aspect of how you lived your life, it would effect many of your day to day choices from the big to the small. You'd avoid coming into conflict with that person, you would probably try to move away if you could, and so on.

The same is true of living in a totalitarian regime or under tyranny or living as a second class citizen or as a slave. Yes, day to day things might seem perfectly "normal". But that normality is itself an illusion. Just as living inside a prison one might "go about one's day" as if what you were experiencing were normal. No, you do not run to the edge of the razor wire topped fence every day, doing so might get you shot. No you do not challenge the status quo every day, doing so is useless and might get you shot. You make do with what you have, you set up your own boundaries that limit the actions you take within a confine that is strictly inside and buffered from the actual hard limits that exist in your world. You don't walk up to the guards at the Berlin Wall and ask "may I leave East Berlin today? I would like to do so" every single day. No, you live your entire life under a cloud of oppression and you live your life with a very different conception of your future possibilities than someone who lives on the other side of the wall.

I'll link here to an excellent /r/AskHistorians reddit post from a while back on what it was like to live in the USSR during Stalin's great purge: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/4md4c4/how_m...

An excerpt:

> You would not know, but it would consume your entire being.

> Imagine a disaster.

> Whether it is an earthquake, a tornado or a hurricane, what comes to mind is a catastrophic moment in which lives are upended, homes torn apart, and families scattered. When the disaster ends, the rebuilding begins. Schools are erected, homes renovated, and so on.

> The psychological damage takes longer to heal. A disaster creates uncertainty. You may not know where your next meal is coming from or where you'll sleep tonight. You might not know where your brother, sister, mother or father is. Do you have a job anymore? Can you survive anymore?

> A disaster is not just the single moment when the roof is torn from your home. It lasts until you are again as secure as you were before the disaster.

Living under the thumb of the East German police state would have been similar in character (if not quite in degree). You would know someone (a relative, a friend of a friend) who had run afoul of the regime and been reeled in in one way or another (arrested, executed, denounced, what-have-you). You would see the fingerprints of the totalitarian regime in every aspect of daily life and it would leave a shadow in your mind that would remain for a very long time.

As horrible as prison is people still get used to it. A few have trouble in when let outside and want to go back.

There is a tendency to think of such people as far outside of the norm, but it's common enough that I think it's just part of the normal human spectrum. For many the USSR was simply how things where, and many who had little power back then still think fondly of that time period. Which really should not be that surprising as for the average person prison would be worse.

That's not to downplay the bad, just notice how people can normalize repeated suffering / be willing to make different trade offs.

I'd have to imagine the wall would just be a one more bullet on a list of traumatic experiences for the region instead of THE traumatic event. I mean this came after a few world wars, genocide, dictators....
Possible that stress affects future generations in surprising ways as well, not only those who experienced it.

The offspring of mice exposed to stress react to the prompt their parents were conditioned with, even though they were raised separately and never exposed to the conditioning: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fearful-memories-...

Listen to the song Eleanor Rigby. It expresses it so well.