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by mayop100·6y ago·view on hn ↗
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If you're already happy with your current job, and we can't convince you that our company is potentially a much better opportunity for you, then this is working as intended.

Interviews are expensive for the company too, so it only makes sense to invest time in someone who really is excited about switching.

9 comments
Just an FYI. Every company talks about the great culture, work life balance, competitive pay and excellent benefits they offer. Jobseekers have to assume you are lying about those things, because most of your colleagues are. (this is why I suspect firms like new collage grads, they haven't learned that you have to give a price for a 50 - 70 hour week even though "overtime is rare") You can't really know how a company really is until you have spent some time and worked through a crisis or two. I used to think I worked at a great place, then the day my daughter was born I received dozens of slack messages and phone calls about testing environments and people were legitimately upset that I spent time with my daughter on her first day on earth rather than help them with their poor planning that could and did wait for me to get back.

Wanting me to jump through a bunch of performative hoops makes me assume you are in the "call you on the day of your daughters birth" camp.

So - the purpose of the take home task is to weed out the people who are not interested enough in the company?

I mean in the article you say "The strongest candidates take their job search seriously and are willing to devote a fair amount of time to landing the right job." the times when this has been true of me has been times when I do not have a job. If I am being headhunted for a job and I am already in a good job, I have a hard time envisioning a scenario where the job being offered would be so enticing that I would be happy to make a significant investment of my time although I might do it grudgingly if the offer is good enough.

When I took the job at a small agency I'm in now I had stopped a consultant task that had run out of funding. I was in a hiring process with four other companies, the small company in the interview asked me how much I wanted I told them my price they said "that's a lot but we expected it would be something like that so it's ok" and then they said something that really cemented my interest in working there than any of the other places that I was interviewing with - they said "we generally have a coding task to do but in your case I think we can skip that".

thank you for saving 4-6 hours out of my week! My family thanks you too!

In fact now that I think of it this testing is another reason why I give people a significant raise as a requirement for moving from my current job. I am earning pretty high up for my market, the market is like many tech places a sellers market. When recruiters ask me to interview with the companies they're selling I name a 18% increase of my current wage and equivalent perks as a requirement to consider moving. Maybe I would only want 10% if I knew that trying for the job wouldn't require me doing a bunch of unpaid work.

> it only makes sense to invest time in someone who really is excited about switching.

Is this necessarily the case? The Clippers had to bend over backwards to get Kawaii Leonard on their team. They almost certainly would never have gotten an NBA Finals MVP if their philosophy was only go after people who were already excited.

The point is there some tradeoff in the design space. It's nice to have people who are excited to work for you, but chances are the superstars that will take your team to the next level, already have a dozen suitors. Kawaii Leonard isn't doing a six hour take home tests.

I'd suggest that maybe Firebase's experience here is not representative. It was one of the hottest startups in the Valley at the time. So maybe it could put up a lot of onerous requirements and still have talented engineers beating down the doors. If you're the Lakers, Lebron James comes to you. But for the 99% of hiring managers that are at the equivalent of the Clippers, maybe the same approach doesn't work.

Professional sports performance is the probably the most visible and normalizable of any profession though. The problem with software is that talent is infinitely harder to evaluate, especially in the context of different teams, systems and domains.
Whenever I am ready to move jobs, I have 2-3 recruiter chats/phone screens per day on top of my normal job as well as some time researching potential employers. I've never joined a company that's given a project because it makes the process slower, it takes more energy and time (during a period where those are typically in short supply), and it's really hard to find multiple uninterrupted periods of time for a project compared to a timeboxed phone call or onsite.

I'm not against projects in concept and I've never complained about them to my point of contact, but they make the process slower (your process takes about twice as much of my time as everyone else's) and less exciting. Every other step of the recruiting process is really fun - talking to people about their company and the work they do, but a project is just homework that I have to do alone after work or on the weekend. I've really liked some companies that gave me a project, but I struggled to find time and then I got to the offer stage much faster with other companies that I also liked, at which point its hard to find the motivation to complete the project knowing that it isn't even the final step.

While you say you never lost a candidate due to the project, I would challenge you to consider whether you lost candidates due to the perception (fair or not) that your process was less enjoyable and more time-consuming than your competitors' and so candidates received and accepted other offers first.

How can any candidate without a solid networking connection inside your company possibly have enough information to be genuinely excited about switching to it?
"We want the best".

"We don't want the best if they are happy in their current job".

This comes across as really arrogant. And is a big big red flag for me.
It's not arrogance, just heaps of confirmation bias and mistaking a large amount of luck for skill.
I don’t think it’s arrogant, just realistic - if you aren’t interested in leaving your current job you probably aren’t going to no matter what the company trying to poach you does. So for them bend over backwards to convince you to interview is a waste of time.
That’s a huge false assumption, of course you might consider leaving if the interview process was less demanding and impractical? It doesn’t seem realistic at all. The company is just continuing with their bad interview process with their head in the sand, telling themselves “it’s okay, the people who don’t like our interview process probably aren’t any good or wouldn’t move anyway!”. I mean how would they know.
Agreed - that is why I said the statement may still be true.

The unasked question is where you believe the engineers are who can make your project a success? Are they out looking for work? Or are they happily ensconced in other work?

There was a prevailing belief, at least a number of years back, that the best engineers were not found on the open market, so you had to actively seek them out. Maybe that isn't the way hiring managers approach the field anymore, though.

Ahh, I understand what you're saying.

My blog post goes through the process for inbound candidates, which accounted for the majority of our hiring. We did actively try to poach folks as well. I spent literally 4 years trying to recruit one of my friends out of Microsoft.

For these folks, you need to sell, sell, sell your vision, product and team. They're not going to switch unless they're really pumped. All of this work to get them excited happens before the interview process even begins.

I think for these people the difficulty of the interview process is a small issue relative to the risk of switching away from a job they already like.

I was going to comment something very similar before I saw this.

Speaking from the candidate's perspective, as someone with performance anxiety, I abhor live coding sessions. Best case, I'm thinking at an impaired level due to the anxiety. Worst case, I can't think at all and freeze up completely.

Therefore, I absolutely love it when companies offer a take home project. And you're right: I'm probably not going to do it unless I'm really interested in the company.

I'm actually going to be doing one this weekend, and I don't mind spending 4-6 hours on it, because at this point in the interview process, I'm really excited about potentially working for this company.

I hate both. Take home exercises require far too much time. White-boarding is just so hit and miss as to whether a solution comes into my head at that time. And its kind of annoying / distracting having someone watch you code / think.
I get the sentiment - but at some point, a hiring company absolutely has to test your ability to make a judgement about whether to hire you. Speaking from experience on both sides of the table, I'd rather that be through writing actual running code than through some awkward or irrelevant whiteboarding exercise.
As I pointed out in another post, the best interview experience I had was when the guy asked me to bring in my laptop with some code.

I brought in my half finished side project. We talked about it, he asked me some questions, I showed him a couple of things about the tech stack that he didn't know. He asked me to add a basic feature. It worked well for both of us. If I had been faking it I think it would have shown.

I think that's a great approach. I agree absolutely about not being able to fake it either; in practice I've never caught anyone putting forth someone else's code as their own, and I don't think it's a huge concern for the reason you mention.

Do also spare a thought for the people who don't have side projects, or any code that they can legitimately share. There are plenty of talented engineers in that position, and it'd be a shame to have a hiring process that leaves them out in the cold.