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A tangential topic - I really think that in general calling plant-based things "meat", a terrible idea. It does not promote plant-base diet or meat consumption reduction. It is trying to be what is not.

I think it pushes away those who are on the cusp of moving towards plant-base foods. Why? Because the consumer is told it is "meat", so they will compare it to meat. They will compare these patties to a real, prime Angus burger.

If we could be honest and declare them what they are, plant-based patties (come up with new name or whatever, plenty of plant-based names in non-English languages) I think it would improve the general image and consumption of these products.

Suddenly we would not be locked in the "meat" category. We can have all kinds of flavors for these products, instead of "meat" flavor, not having to "live up to" the meat taste, and mouth feel. We can live up to great flavors vegetables, fruits, and herbs.

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> I think it pushes away those who are on the cusp of moving towards plant-base foods.

I think you are completely wrong.

People eat meat because they like the taste and the texture, but at the same time everyone knows that meat is produced by killing animals, and that it's much less sustainable than vegetarian food.

If you want to get people to switch to meat alternatives, you have to keep everything that's great about meat (taste, texture, proteins), while removing everything that's bad about meat (slaughter, livestock industry).

And that is exactly what this new generation of plant-based alternatives are focusing on, and given their popularity compared to earlier attempts, I think they're on the right track.

Quick question: Are you yourself a vegetarian or vegan?

Agreed. So many non vegetarian/vegan people say stuff like this and it’s just wrong. Or they’ll say “why have a fake burger, can’t you just enjoy vegetarian food, why does it have to be a burger? If you want burger just eat one and stop trying to copy meat, innovate on your own”.

It’s just people completely missing the point. If you get fake meat close enough in taste/texture/price you’ll move a large amount of product. The high high majority of meat consumption is not high quality product, but the absolutely lowest quality possible. It’s so easy to swap out they meh hamburger patty you have at a bbq with a plant based one, be healthier, and have less impact on the environment.

> People eat meat because they like the taste and the texture, but at the same time everyone knows that meat is produced by killing animals, and that it's much less sustainable than vegetarian food.

I think this is too generous. Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but the implicit message here is that people actually care about the animals and sustainability of meat farming.

My spouse is vegetarian and I'm whatever. I don't buy meat but if it finds itself in front of me I'll eat it. I have had the conversation of the horrors of meat production many times at the dinner table with a spectrum of people, and nobody changed their habits. Yes, this is anecdotal, and I'm willing to read a source and change my opinion if there is some evidence that people actually give a shit about the animals. As far as I can tell, it is all just virtue signaling at best.

I agree with OP. I think we would be better served in the long run creating good consumables that have the caloric density and amino acid profiles found in meats and encourage people to eat those instead of trying to replicate something we should be horrified about.

I think you and OP are talking about different things.

For most products, and virtually all that aren't particularly modern, they suffer from being set up as direct replacements for meat. Take fake deli meats, for example. There are options that make a good sandwich. But they don't make a good $specific-meat sandwich. If they found a way to position themselves more in the vein of ham vs turkey vs plant-based sandwich they would do far, far better. Instead they position themselves as fake-ham or something, and then some unsuspecting person trying out plant-based alternatives goes in expecting a ham sandwich and ends up with their expectations rather violated. People don't like that, particularly with food. But they went in just expecting some kind of sandwich, I think they very well might enjoy it.

I've been vegetarian-tending-towards-vegan for over a decade and I still occasionally fall into that trap if I'm not careful.

Products like Impossible are the exception. They are so notable because they are getting into the realm where a direct comparison with meat actually works in their favor. I think that's great. I think you are right that this is the key for convincing many people to move away from meat. It's so much easier to market something as another version of meat, rather than a whole new thing. But I also think it's worth keeping in mind that they are exceptional products, and what works for them may not be the best for others.

I agree. The marketing innovation that has made plant meat successful (at least where I am) has been marketing it to meat eaters in the meat aisle, stripping away the vegetarian identity association

Not OP, but as someone who is not vegetarian/vegan and is from a country with a cuisine that revolves heavily around meat (Mexican) I have to agree with OP.

> If you want to get people to switch to meat alternatives, you have to keep everything that's great about meat (taste, texture, proteins), while removing everything that's bad about meat (slaughter, livestock industry).

I think one thing is making sure it's great, and another thing is making sure it's the same, and you can have something that's great and heavily impacts the market without having it be the same.

Just thinking of a random example where this worked; MDF is very much not wood, but it's pretty great for most things. People still buy a lot of wooden furniture, surfaces, etc but for a lot of use-cases MDF does just fine. MDF isn't trying to have the same weight, the exact same texture, or be as solid as wood. It's another material and it's marketed as another material, not as "replacement wood" or something along those lines.

Thinking of an example where this hasn't worked; Stadia. Google is very much trying to replace consoles and is focusing on AAA games, but the thing is, as it stands today, Stadia is not a console replacement. The way google is positioning Stadia though puts it in the eyes of hardcore gamers who care about the details: the latency, the streaming resolution, etc. Perhaps if they weren't trying to sell it as your next AAA-game console, they would attract a section of the population that just wants to play games easily, and don't care so much about the specifics.

The goal here is to not fully replace the market, but shrink it.

Another point worth making is that it's hard to imagine we can reverse the trend in global warming keeping excessive consumer habits— people need to change too. Sure, electric cars will consume less CO2 and they are an easy short-term solution in a car-centric society, but cities need to be planned better so car use in general decreases. Sure, recycled plastics can reduce or plastic waste, but we shouldn't be producing so many water bottles in the first place. Plant-based "meat" are likewise a step in the right direction, but it's also the case meant consumption is just very high. Trying to offer solutions that don't tackle the underlying problem make hard to guarantee long-term sustainability.

I think it's a function of the quality of the imitation by vegetarian options. Years back I said the same think as the person you're responding to, because the "meat" was in no way a reasonable substitute. It wasn't at all similar to actual meat, so why bother calling it "meat"?

Now that they're getting close, I agree with you and it makes more sense to call it "meat" because it's very close to being indistinguishable.

I love a good hamburger or steak, but I'll happily give it up when there's something not-animal-based that's as good.

I eat meat because I like the taste, but I don't give a hoot about the slaughter/animals. I don't want a replacement for my steak that is a bad steak, and I don't want to ruin great vegetables by making them into something that is not.

Well you could also just promote delicious vegetarian dishes. There are entire cultures that mostly eat vegetarian. Fake meat is such a silly concept.

> People eat meat because they like the taste and the texture

AFAIK people usually don’t like the flavor nor texture of meat. If that was the case, you would see more people boiling the meat and not spice it. But AFAIK meat eaters tend to spice their meat a lot, to an extent where there it is the spice is the primary taste. They then oil the meat and prefer it fried or grilled which alters the texture as well.

With plant based food you have all these options and more.

>I think you are completely wrong.

Not completely wrong, You mentioned earlier attemps failing and as a person who opened their mind and wallet, I ate at a vegan restaurant in the 90s and can say it ruined tofu and taro root for me.

Also the livestock industry is not all bad, many industrial livestock operations could be considered "bad" but there are still ethical people that raise animals for food just like I'm sure there are unethical vegans out there...some sell drugs. Some commit crime. Some are rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.

I started trying to google for research on this, but didn't find much.

But I'm pretty sure you're wrong -- I doubt that these companies would be selling these premium meat-replacement products with the word meat if they didn't have lots of market research on it.

It tells you what you can use the things for -- the impossible and beyond products can be used to replace ground beef in pretty much any recipe, and will do the job. People can use it immediately with the recipes and cooking techniques they are familiar with, it makes the product comfortable and familiar instead of a new thing that requires them to adjust their palettes and learn new cooking techniques.

I think you're right that someone who has committed to a meat-free diet doesn't want or need the label meat. (but they'll buy the stuff anyway if they like it and can afford it, they are kind of a captive market). But when you say "meat consumption reduction" -- if every meat eater replaces say 20% of their meat consumption with this stuff, it would be a gigantic reduction in animals killed (for those who care about that). Assuming there is less greenhouse gas and other ecological damage from these meat replacements, a gigantic reduction in that too.

I dont think you can lump together committed vegetarians with ominivores who may replace a portion of their consumption with these products. Perhaps an ever-increasing portion, perhaps eventually they will become vegetarians. But calling the non-animal-based stuff "meat" is squarely aimed at current omnivores -- and it seems hard to argue that it won't work when it is literally working, as the OP outlines in talking about market share and grocery space. Burger king is selling impossible burgers because they can sell them as burgers; and if they tried instead introducing some new product that isn't meant to resemble a beef burger but is just some kind of "vegetarian food", I guarantee it would sell less not more.

The place you’re right is in the “slab of meat” category: the only thing that’ll replace steak is lab-grown meat, and then only partially. And I agree that, eg bean burgers do well to market themselves as different. It’s a legit point.

But this new fake meat stuff reduced my meat intake significantly. It’s is FANTASTIC for replacing low-quality meat in a lot of cases. I have no need for ground beef/turkey/pork if I have beyond meat ground “beef” in a lot of cases. It’s a straight substitute, and I wouldn’t have thought about it that way if it was posed more narrowly.

I remember trying a Beyond Burger for the first time.

Overall impression was that had some fastfood chains replaced their patties with this, not only nobody would notice that what they're eating isn't actually meat, but also they would be happy with how the quality improved.

There's of course the question of price, but I'm sure with adequate scale it can be brought down.

Definition of meat by merriam-webster:

a: FOOD especially : solid food as distinguished from drink

b: the edible part of something as distinguished from its covering (such as a husk or shell)

The same as with milk. Nobody had problems with coconut milk until dairy lobby started fearing plant milk competition. And when one buys oat yogurt they know exactly what they'll get and what to compare it with. Or do you think fat free or lactose free cow milk yogurt shouldn't be called as such, since it's its own thing?

How we name things is important and naming things by their appearance and function is completely fine and useful and has been done since ever. Things like turkey ham or turkey bacon aren't new inventions.

Upvote this comment if you've ever encountered a native english speaker use the word 'meat' to be a synonym of 'solid food'.

Option Base 1

I would like to see when Merriam Webster added this obscure definition, let alone have it listed first.

I really think that in general calling plant-based things "meat", a terrible idea.

The US meat industry is fighting that battle.[1] So far, they're not winning. In the EU, dirt farmers have been able to prevent the use of the term "organic" for hydroponic farms, though.

We can live up to great flavors vegetables, fruits, and herbs.

There's a bright future ahead for new classes of junk foods. Plant-based bacon flavored chips, coming soon to a convenience store near you.

[1] https://www.foodnavigator-usa.com/Article/2021/02/03/Highly-...

> Plant-based bacon flavored chips, coming soon to a convenience store near you.

I'm probably misunderstanding something, but my potato chips have hopefully always been plant-based (even if bacon-flavored - no idea if that requires animal ingredients)?

I agree. Back when I was young, my mom was talking to a friend about food and tofu came up. They had never heard of it and asked what it was like. My mom said it was kinda like cheese. Fast forward to the next time the friend was over, and they related that they had tried buying some tofu and hated it. Why? Because they figured to try to use it like they use cheese, and tried to put slices of tofu in a sandwich...

Can you imagine trying to market tofu as a cottage cheese alternative? In hindsight, it makes way more sense to market tofu as its own thing, and there's a lot of dishes that only work with tofu.

After I got married, my chinese wife related some of her experience with food growing up. In China, they have these veggie cakes that are somewhat similar in texture and seasoning to meatballs, but no one was ever under any impression that they were anything but veggie cakes. They are not marketed as meatballs, nobody thinks of them as meatballs, and yet they are still great.

This idea of trying to market veggie patties as something they are not is very puzzling. It's also a bit sad that it feels like BigFood is trying to tell westerners that they shouldn't get creative with culinary. "Burgers are all you need" is what the messaging sounds like.

My disagreement with your comment is based on the words “veggie patties”, which I don’t think really capture what’s going on with “fake meat”. These are not boca burgers, mushroom burgers, or black bean burger (which I eat a lot of), but something that actually (afaict) tastes like meat.

If it’s a patty made with black beans then you will see descriptions such as plant based patty but if it’s a beyond burger then you’ll see descriptions like plant based meat; see if they are trying to make it look like meat and taste like meat then the description is applicable.

A common stigma with vegan or vegetarian diets is that of the food not being as good or limited and having something that compares to meat is a plus because it brings light to the endless possibilities in food and texture that a vegan diet without animal meat really has...

not only this, but to turn plants into "meat" you end up with horrible processed vegetables with added oils, sugars and unnatural flavourings. most of which are then breadcrumbed in bleached flour and deep fried. by this point, the thing that might once have been a plant is now as bad as meat, if not worse, and resembles a dog turd in taste and health benefits

People looking for direct meat replacements arent always doing it to be healthier though, so they might be okay with it being just as unhealthy as meat.

Completely agree. Why can't we all just eat regular, and not so highly processed vegetables if we want to make the switch to healthier diet..

Yeah I agree. There’s delicious vegetarian dishes, with low processed ingredients. Why bother with ultra processed fake meat?

Going to figure if the EU track record with soy/almond and other "milks" I would expect a challenge to force the issue there. [0]. However as you note, would it be a bad thing if they could not or would not reference it as meat?

I think the main reason for assigning the name to these plant based substitutes is to give the public a better understand of it uses and that its a valid substitute. To me, both meat and milk are generic names and its just a matter of time before expanding the definition becomes a non issue

[0]https://www.ecowatch.com/eu-vegan-dairy-law-2650162992.html

If it says plant-based meat, I am going to try it since it aims to simulate a taste/texture I know I like. If it says "vegetarian" I assume it will taste bad, because historically that has been the case.

That's an anecdote, but I don't think I am an edge case, many people have tried an Impossible Burger who had little to no interest in trying a vegetarian burger.

The reason that I will be buying plant-based meat things is because they smell, look, and taste like meat.

>We can live up to great flavors vegetables, fruits, and herbs.

But that's a whole thing altogether. That's like completely missing the point. You aren't going to get meat eaters to switch to plant-based meat patties if they taste like vegetables or fruits.

It seems like an easy, quick win for people who aren't strongly inclined to fully transition to a vegetarian diet. I've replaced ground beef with vegan meat crumbles in all my recipes, and it _just works_. I brown them at a little lower temperature, I pay a little more for the crumbles, and otherwise I can completely replace that portion of my meat consumption with other materials.

Vegetarian patties, mushroom-based recipes, etc can be good and stand up on their own without comparing them to meat, but meat substitutes are good too.

As someone who got forced into a vegan diet for health reasons, I really appreciate fake meat and I'm stoked on fake hamburgers and hotdogs and whatever. They famously have a reputation for mystery ingredients anyway. Nobody gives a fuck.

>If we could be honest and declare them what they are, plant-based patties

The problem, really, is to increase the textural variety of plant-based proteins. Currently you have bean products on a spectrum from soft tofu to faux-chorizo, which taste essentially like beans at varying levels of chewiness. (Generally, the two ends of this spectrum are my favorites.) The interest in meats depends at least somewhat on there being a variety of textures (fish, chicken, pulled pork, ground beef); producing just one texture only gets you so far.

A reasonably cheap plant-based mimic of bone broth, Greek yogurt, egg white (protein-based), or parmesan cheese could probably have as much impact as a single meat substiute. A few of these have been made with starches (aquafaba for eggs; various gums for yogurt), but not proteins.

Literally the entire reason these products exist is to be a replacement for meat. A replacement should be as good as the thing it is replacing.

Agree. I have never had beef or any meat egg in my life. My coworker, american, suggested me that the new restaurant in town as Almost Meat burger, made of soy, but texture/taste almost like beef.

I love soy, tofu, cheese, but I do not want to taste or feel the texture of any meat. So I don't think I will ever be eating anything which resembles meat, taste/content/texture wise.

I used to say this. My experience of substitute meat was basically "What the, why does this cafeteria burger taste like garbage? Dammit, I grabbed the fake tofu one by accident.". The key recent difference, for me, is that this experience doesn't happen with the new veggie burgers (like the beyond burger). They just taste like a decent burger. You can prepare them in the same way as a meat burger. You can store them in the same was as a meat burger. They are a decent burger substitute.

Well, the term "meat" is what clicks and pull most of the customers towards these products. I would say the marketing people have done a good job keeping that name.

On the other hand, however, I think that keeping things like "chicken", "beef", etc in the names is what is confusing and misleading. I'm a vegetarian but everytime I pickup plant meat and see the words "chicken", etc. on the labels, I freak out.

I say we start calling it phyte, since it sounds a bit better than pleat. Translates better too. Could even pronounce it like it rhymes with “meat”.

I agree.

As a meat eater, these recreations are a joke. They can just about compete with chicken nuggets. I don’t like nuggets. So I’ve come to regard them as inedible. Same goes for vegan “cheese”. Bleurgh.

And the thing is, I love falafel. There’s bound to be plenty more plant-based patty things. Veggie dishes that don’t pretend to be something they’re not are delicious. Give me baked onions, baba ghanoush, and celery all day.

> I really think that in general calling plant-based things "meat" [is] a terrible idea

Nutmeats will now be known as nutguts.

Agreed. I described benevolent bacon to someone as “you’re not going to eat it and think “oh wow I just ate bacon” but you will think “oh wow who needs bacon?””

That's one of my pet peeves. I wish I could find good vegetarian restaurants that don't use any of the plant based meat ersatz. There's so much that can be done with vegetarian food, fake meat limits the creativity and is a lazy way to cooking. It leads to a rise of restaurants making mediocre food using plant based fake meat that is a pale comparison to the original.

So far my favorite restaurant experience ever was going to Fu He Hui in Shanghai. It's a michelin star vegetarian restaurant, there was no fake meat, but it was extremely flavorful and I keep wishing I could go back.

We have vegetables.

Why would someone choose to eat some mix of pea protein and coconut oil if not to replace meat or make a political statement?

the best veggie burgers are the ones that don't try to imitate meat. my local burger place does a falafel burger that i'd honestly take over beef pretty much any day of the week.

All meat is plant-based as anyone that understands basic ecology knows.

Why shouldn't they compare it to meat?

If I am asked to replace meat with plants, these plants have to compete with meat.

From what I’ve read, plant-based meat isn’t much healthier than normal meat, it’s benefits are primarily environmental and ethical. True plant-based food should have a health benefit at least, especially over meat.

Almond and Oat “milk” industry would disagree with you. They completely disrupted the milk industry by getting away with being a “milk” even though they are not.

I think if Fake meats aren’t classified as meat they wont get the mind share required to shift people’s habits.