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"Towards the end of my visit at NASA, I went to the Wallops Flights Facility at Wallops Island in East coast, Virginia. This place was the base for NASA's sounding rocket programme. Here I saw a painting prominently displayed in the reception lobby. It depicted a battle scene with a few rockets flying in the background. A painting with this theme should be the most common place thing at a flight facility, but the painting caught my eye, because the soldiers on the side launching the rockets were not white but were dark skinned, with racial features found in South Asia. It turned out to be Tipu Sultans army fighting the British. The painting depicted a fact forgotten in Tipu's own country but commemorated here on the other side of the planet."
Source — Wings of fire, an autobiography of Dr. A.P.J. Abdul Kalam.
APJ Abdul Kalam was also known as the 'Missile Man of India' for his contribution to the development of India's missile projects, Prithvi and Agni missiles. India became a nuclear power under Kalam who was the Chief Scientific Adviser to the Prime Minister between 1992 and 1999
He also served as the president of India and was by far the most popular president India had.
There's an interesting episode about Tipu Sultan on the podcast 'Stuff the British Stole' by Marc Fenell ('that movie... guy' for any aussies of a certain age), if anyone is interested.
https://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/stuff-the-brit...
One thing that is curious about the Indian sub-continent is their mythological texts. There are two well-known epic texts: The Mahabhrat and The Ramayan. Both these texts talk about aeroplanes, teleportations, rockets, test-tube baby, body preservation and medicines that heal serious battle injuries. And it is talked about in a matter-of-fact way, as if there is no novelty in these technologies. The frustrating part of these texts is the mixing of facts with fiction. So it becomes difficult to know what was really available back then. But the sheer thought that ancient humans atleast dreamt these advance ideas makes one wonder what type of civilisation was there back then?
There's a weird effect with these things - myths from other cultures seem fascinating and indicate Atlantis-like civilizations. Similar myths from you own culture are obviously just boring metaphors and scary stories to make children behave.
For example the Tower of Babel could be interpreted as aliens destroying a space program (possibly space elevator) with mind-control technology. But with the cultural baggage of the christian civilization we interpret it very differently.
The story about Jericho could be about nuclear weapons or orbital bombardment.
The story about Lazarus could be some advanced medicine.
There's a lot of this stuff in any culture - but they seem more awesome when you weren't indoctrinated about the "correct" interpretations since you were a child.
> they seem more awesome when you weren't indoctrinated about the "correct" interpretations since you were a child
This isn't totally true in India. I've had relatives seriously contemplate ancient Indian civilizations with heavier-than-air flight, nuclear weapons and even orbital capabilities. (A similar thing happened in industrializing Britain and Prussia, so maybe it's just a natural thing in a culture undergoing rapid industrialization.)
> For example the Tower of Babel could be interpreted as...
But there is no need for interpretation or misinterpretation of some of these texts because the text directly mentions the transportation e.g. in Raamaayan, the then king of Lanka(present day Shri Lanka), Raavan, flew from Lanka on his "vaayu yaan"(i.e. aeroplane) to Panchavati(in present day Nashik in the western state of Maharashtra in India) to kidnap Sitaa, wife of Raam.
Debunked as bad science fairly quickly, but, Sodom & Gomorrah being destroyed by a meteor aeroburst is less in the realm of science fiction but a good example of how a natural catastrophe can be retold as folklore and integrated into religious text. IIRC the flood is another one of those that is retold in a wide number of texts/cultures and had scientific evidence behind it? Last one I'm not sure about now.
As an aside, for those interested : this sort of "paleo-contact" ideas were proposed by Erich von Däniken. Aztec lines are space-ports, the flaming angel from the bible is a landing space craft, etc.
Someone even made a sci-fi cartoon about it, that 8-year-old me enjoyed =) It can't be that hard to find a PDF somewhere.
https://wearethemutants.com/2020/04/30/ancient-astronaut-com...
> Both these texts talk about aeroplanes, teleportations, rockets, test-tube baby, body preservation and medicines that heal serious battle injuries. And it is talked about in a matter-of-fact way, as if there is no novelty in these technologies. The frustrating part of these texts is the mixing of facts with fiction. So it becomes difficult to know what was really available back then. But the sheer thought that ancient humans atleast dreamt these advance ideas makes one wonder what type of civilisation was there back then?
If ancient civilization actually realized any of those technologies, I'm certain it would have left a significant archeological trace that would have been discovered by now. For instance: an actual airplane (as opposed to a glider) would need a significant industrial base for the engine and fuel that we'd probably see all kinds of evidence for. I don't think that's the kind of thing a solo inventor or even a city-state could manage independently.
There's the ancient atomic war theory:
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/blogs/thedanispost/resea...
Depends on, how long ago those events happened and the amount of human activity in the area.
Most of these were novel and rare mostly given as a boon by the Gods. We also have monkeys, vulture, bear with human like or beyond intelligence. The numbers were off by all practical imaginations. Armies were of order of 10^7 - 10^70.
But but my WhatsApp forward said ancient Indians also had VR and AR so anything is possible. /s
It’s just sci fi. If you read a modern sci fi book you’ll find casual references to spaceplanes, wormholes, and stuff like that.
In many of them, the characters won’t even remark about the wormholes. It’s normal.
Like almost all ancient literature, Gods are just the primary medium via which the ideas are delivered. So sci fi becomes divine sci fi, drama becomes divine drama, etc.
Yep, this could be one potent reasoning. And that is why I said in my original post that it will be interesting to find out about that ancient civilisation that was able to think about so many advance concepts.
I could be wrong because I haven't read unabridged versions of either. My sense is we tend to relate what was described abstractly with advancements we see around us.
For e.g. with flying vehicles in ancient epics I'm skeptical that they describe in any detail how flight was achieved besides magic or divine power.
> My sense is we tend to relate what was described abstractly with advancements we see around us.
How is the mention of ""vaayu yaan" abstract? Can we similarly say that to the mention of present day "aeroplane" abstract and dismiss it as non-existent?
> For e.g. with flying vehicles in ancient epics I'm skeptical that they describe in any detail how flight was achieved besides magic or divine power.
In present day writings(fiction or otherwise) when we mention flights or aeroplane, we don't mention every nut and bolt of the aeroplane. So saying the ancient text did not give much details is unfair to those texts. As I mentioned in my original post, these advance ideas were mentioned in a matter-of-fact way as if it is not a novelty, similar to how we now mention air travel or space flights.
I mean, if a complete layperson were to describe how an airplane works, how would you even begin? It looks a bit like a bird and err, it's very loud, and it flies! I mean if you don't know the least about an engine, how would you describe it? There's untold masses of people out there that still lack even a basic education, and that education / class difference was worse as you go back in time.
Anyway, your second sentence reminds me of how we interpret e.g. Nostradamus' writing in hindsight, how he predicted Hitler and 9/11 and all that. But only in hindsight.
This is a well-known and popularized myth about the ancient scriptures which plays on patriotic feeling by claiming "uniqueness" and advancement in ancient India. It is manifestly not true or based in fact that any of these technologies existed at the time - there's simply too many holes (why didn't any other culture reproduce these fantastic feats or obtain access to these? where is the archaeological record? why did no other text from the time corroborate this story?), and the best "evidence" the scriptures even talk about this are generous translations that don't accord with the actual historical or linguistic data.
This sort of myth is yet another distortion of the past in favour of a narrative enshrining pre-modern India as superior that has taken ahold of my country. Only in India will people claim Valmiki's is the only valid version of the Ramayana (there are hundreds of versions of the Ramayana, some told as far as Thailand, of which Valmiki's is just one - see A. K. Ramanujam's "Three Hundred Ramayanas"); make homeopathy derived from Ayurveda a nationally accredited field of medicine despite overwhelming clinical evidence it is no better than a placebo; and claim the Vedas predicted the inventions we take for granted today. It is misplaced reverence untempered by an awareness of how to interpret historical documents, and all it serves is to blind people to facts and common sense.
Yeah it's unnerving because there are many great, real accomplishments from people in India, and no doubt many more to be found in the future. But dreaming about a special destiny inherited from the past doesn't necessarily require the dreamer to think about the here and now and what responsibility they may have to bring about the future we all desire.
It's dangerous because it simultaneously pacifies people towards the active role they should take in creating the world they will live in but also promises them they are the would-be inheritors of some mythical past, and that others are unlike them in that way.
As always we gotta work together and look towards the future, not the past. Basically, if you want to live in Star Trek, at least.
You can say the same thing about mythology from other cultures (Greek, Roman, Norse, Egyptian, Chinese, Arthurian and hundreds more). Ultimately human imagination works the same way worldwide.
'matter-of-fact' - what is more important is that the after effects/side effect are eerily accurate so makes it hard to dismiss it as mere imagination.
In the Hindu thought, everything is cyclical including the birth and death of the universe. It is not human or earth centric, talks about other planets or worlds requiring space travel, space-time effects of travel. Nagas - advanced reptilian people who precede humans and in some stories come to the aid of humans sound alien or a parallel species.
While we are at it, don't miss this reference to Bangalores[1] in Saving Private Ryan[2].
Interestingly enough, the unit in question, Madras Sappers[3] and MEG (Madras Engineers Group, I think) still exists in Bangalore when the city in question (Madras) itself has changed its name to Chennai ;-)
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangalore_torpedo
[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlCItO2jEJw
[3] https://goo.gl/maps/3EKcbYuNbJ9Ury7h9Does anyone here know who developed this technology? A frequent complaint I have with Indian historiography is that the actual inventors and developers are forgotten, and kings get all the credit. All that my middle-school textbooks said was Tipu Sultan used them against the Brits.
According to this book[1] war rockets were used in India at least as early as the 14th century, and mughal emperor Akbar used metal-headed ones in the 16th. So it would seem neither rockets nor metal ones were invented by Tipu. However it doesn't answer your question of who did invent the war rocket :-)
1. The Mughal Empire at War: Babur, Akbar and the Indian Military Revolution, 1500-1605 (Asian States and Empires) https://www.amazon.in/dp/B01EX69NJ0/ref=cm_sw_r_apan_glt_DMX...
Edit: added the link
But IIUC what you want to who under Tipu's rule invented (or revived) this rocket. You're probably right in thinking it wasn't Tipu himself who did this, since he was a king and not a scientist. But i suspect the real inventor's name is lost to history.
>>All that my middle-school textbooks said was Tipu Sultan used them against the Brits.
The area that is now Karnataka, or erst while state of Mysore/Deccan has a rich culture of knowledge and art that has been pervasive regardless of the political entities that have ruled over them.
Its also understandable as that area has relatively more peace, stability and tolerance compared to other areas in the sub-continent, hence economic-knowledge prosperity follows from there.
Tipu like many before him was the beneficiary of a long going positive social inertia. No doubt he was good, but he had a lot going for him.
Even as of now. Karnataka has done relatively compared to bulk of India since Independence.
Tipu is respected by a lot of people, but the genocide of Coorgis who opposed him is well known history.
There are a lot of movements against historically whitewashing his rule.
Here's what 'I' think; Gun powder technology got assimilated into Mongol Army through their conquests in Chinese mainland and there have been evidences that Mongols employed them for some primitive rocketry like spear projectiles powered by gun powder.
Mongols were ancestors of Mughals and it's plausible that they brought with them rocketry tech to India as there have evidences that rocketry was prevalent in Mughal empire even before Tipu Sultan's time.
This was one of the first links in the article on Mysorean Rockets. In what way do you believe this answers my question?
In The Star-Spangled Banner, the “rocket’s red glare” refers to British Congreve rockets that were copies of Mysore’s rockets made when they captured the arsenals after defeating Tipu Sultan by treachery.
"Copies" isn't quite correct. They were much improved.
Tipu Sultan was a cruel ruler, and got soundly defeated by a superior, well supplied force despite Tipu having access to rockets.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Mysore_Wars
What is this treachery you are talking about ?
From the first Amazon book I could find on India "Britain held back political progress in India for as long as possible – a policy which led to unimaginable chaos and suffering when independence was granted, and which created a legacy of hatred and distrust that continues to this day. "
Ever heard the saying "divde and conquer" its an Roman saying(?) but the British used this tactic often during their colonialism. Their oppression in the region goes much deeper, you can read up on it since there are many books.
The link you supplied makes no mention of Tipu Sultan being a cruel ruler. Even Tipu Sultan's own wiki page @ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipu_Sultan does not contain the word 'cruel'.
Not sure how to read your comment but this is what I found.
>>What is this treachery you are talking about ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purnaiah
The British simply bribed this guy onto their side.
He really was more like Charles Maurice de Talleyrand-Périgord - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Maurice_de_Talleyrand-...
I wouldn't really call this treachery, In fact I wouldn't even call Jaichand a traitor or anything. The are often over simplistic narratives of deeply complicated situations.
Fun facts, the Mysorean rocket was the main reasons that Britsh was defeated several times in the battle against Kingdom of Mysore [1]. The leader of the British army at the time is none other than Arthur Wellesley, better known as 1st Duke of Wellington who later defeated Napoleon at Waterloo, and ended Napoleonic Era in Europe.
The British was so impressed by the technology, then decided to purposely created a new company to improve on the Mysore rocket technology to be used in war and created Royal Arsenal Woolwich in 1801 that later became Arsenal football club. The original name of Arsenal footbal club was Woolwich football club. Royal Arsenal were very successful that during WW1 it employed 80,000 workers. I think it's not an exxageration to say that Napolean was defeated by British partly due to Congereve rockets produced by the new company, that were improved from Mysorean rocket [2].
Another fun fact is that the Tipu Sultan of the Kingdom of Mysore also ruled Bangalore, now considered the Silicon of Valley of India.
Thanks, I love this sort of thing. I'm always amazed how advanced we were throughout history, mostly with war.
War makes the rulers forget for one moment, the fragile system of controlled stagnation on the inside and allow those who would otherwise be condemned to rot in forgotten labs to shine for a second. War removes the anti-disruption brakes inherent to any power system.
I love the fact that someone in the drawing just put a bayonet in a rocket. That's some taticool thing over there...
By attaching these blades to rockets they became very unstable towards the end of their flight causing the blades to spin around like flying scythes, cutting down soldiers in their path.
This is so cool. Never knew this !
Tipu Sultan was awesome.