back

by ripe·4y ago·view on hn ↗
> non-productive Speculative investments tend to get punished at the end of the cycle by losing all value, thus punishing those invested in it and restoring order.

To be precise, the investors who are left holding at the end of the cycle get punished. The early investors who got out make out like robbers.

This system incentivizes pump-and-dump.

3 comments
That is "the market" working for you!

We could allocate resources to productive assets by fiscal spending, but that is prevented by politics. Only when "the market" gets its cut can any infrastructure be built in the US. That's also true for much of the medical establishment and pension/retirement systems. If the market was efficient, we wouldn't be complaining about it. Unfortunately, a "free market" and an efficient market (and you could argue whether infrastructure or medicine or income insurance even make sense as markets) are not the same. Most markets that have many individual consumers require regulation to be even close to efficient. Like political and financial enforcement they are too easy to manipulate and the consequences of malfeasance are substantially less than the profits to be made.

What sucks is that fiscal policy, ie government spending, is also often not very efficient. Even when rampant corruption doesn’t destroy efficiency, crushing bureaucracy or just plain incompetence will. (Is the DMV a model of efficiency?)

So you need a smart balance. And you need competent, honest people in both business AND government.

I don’t think that government necessarily is inefficient. The DMV could be a very efficient place. The fact that it isn’t should cause at least some pause for those advocating more government spending (such as myself).

And the same is true for business. Comcast is terrible. But it doesn’t HAVE to be. Rent-seeking and anti-competitive behavior makes it terrible.

People keep using the DMV as an example of government inefficiency, but my state has made it run so painlessly I don't think I've spent more than 15 minutes in an office over the last 5 years. I think government can be efficient if you put technocrats in charge of implementation rather than elected officials who are subject to the electoral whims of the uninformed masses.

The problem with the above is it weakens democratic institutions by removing the exercise of power from the people the population select to lead.

Inefficiency to me can not possibly be more clearly demonstrated than by ape pictures losing hundreds of thousands of dollars for their purchasers. But we also have examples like Uber spending cash on hand to drive competitors under without having a plan to maintain their own services without heavy subsidy.

The DMV in my state requires you make an appointment 4-6 months out right now. Walk-in appointments are unavailable or only available during a few hours a few days a week, if they happen to have staff that day. Good luck if you have your drivers license stolen.

I sold a car of mine to Carvana in October. I returned the license plate to the DMV immediately, which is how they're notified that you no longer own the vehicle, waited 7 days, then cancelled my insurance policy on that car. A month later, I got a letter from the DMV that it is a crime to not carry insurance on my vehicle and I will have to reinstate the insurance and pay a $70 fine for letting it lapse. On the car I no longer own, that was now titled in another state and resold by Carvana already.

It took 2 more months and 3 different forms to get the DMV to accept that I no longer owned the car and to stop pursuing me for this "crime".

>The DMV in my state requires you make an appointment 4-6 months out right now. Walk-in appointments are unavailable or only available during a few hours a few days a week, if they happen to have staff that day. Good luck if you have your drivers license stolen.

Sounds like your state has a big problem.

In my state (New York), appointments are generally available within a week and walk-ins are welcome, but those with appointments get priority.

I've never spent more than 30 minutes or so at a NY DMV location and most transactions are available online, including replacement of lost/stolen licenses.

In fact, I decided on Wednesday (11 May 2022) that I wanted to trade in my license for an "Enhanced Driver's License"[0] (EDL) which, among other things, will be required for domestic air travel[1] in a year or so.

That's one of the few transactions that must be done in person. I went online to book an appointment and was presented with a whole bunch of appointment times next week. I chose Thursday (19 May 2022) as it worked best with my schedule, but I could have gone on the 16th if I'd wanted.

So, no. Not all DMVs are a pain or inefficient. Want to make that better in your state? Elect people who will work for you. Just a crazy thought.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_driver's_license

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REAL_ID_Act

WTF? This must be because of willful political sabotage?

The license plate should follow the car and ownership should be changed online as part of the transaction. It sounds incredibly wasteful that every time a car changes ownership the seller must hand over the plates in person to the DMV. And is there no national registry of cars or data sharing between states? Strange that a car can be registered twice.

If your drivers license is stolen you should be able to just order a new one online and have it delivered in the mail. I have been inside the building of our DMV equivalent two times. One time when I did theoretical exam to be allowed a practical driving test, and once for the driving test. I got a temporary license when I passed and the proper license in the mail the next week. This was 20 years ago.

That's an awful setup. More states need to get DMV mostly online. I just go to their website when I sell my car and tell them I've sold it. No sending back plates (which is good, I keep my plates when I sell a car, because I like them).
What state is this? I always thought it was illegal to drive on public roads without insurance, not simply own an uninsured vehicle. From the farm, to the drag strip to the 4x4 trail, tons of people own uninsured vehicles that are not driven on public roads.
Which state? I’ve lived all over and never witnessed anything this bad
California right?
Please don't still your car to carvana. They are destroying private party used car sales in many communities around the country.
Almost all DMV problems are due to understaffing, not any laziness or incompetence on the part of the people who work there.

In California the DMV experience was greatly improved by having appointments, and for walk in, you get a number and at least have an idea when you'll be called, so you can sit in a waiting area, not have to stand for hours.

COVID has reduced staffing so that makes appointments harder to get.

Also, imagining that corporate offices are models of efficiency is an error.

My point wasn’t to say DMV is ALWAYS inefficient but just that the DMV is a good litmus test for efficiency. Sounds like in your state, the DMV is efficient and therefore perhaps fiscal policy would be well-spent!
> People keep using the DMV as an example of government inefficiency, but my state has made it run so painlessly I don't think I've spent more than 15 minutes in an office over the last 5 years.

It's totally baffling to me when there's 'the DMV' in US films/tv, because that's just not a place (nor anything equivalent) we have to go to, whether it's 'only fifteen minutes' or more.

(Sure, when my driving licence expires in 10y, or I change address, I'll need to spend a minute or so on an online form.)

Thirty years ago in Massachusetts, if you had DMV business, you just walked in, waited half an hour, and conducted your business. And we complained about that.

Things have not improved, to say the least.

See I wish. The DMV near me has been merged with other offices (probably in some lazy attempt to “reduce spending”) and you better make your appointment a month or two out because there won’t be any availability otherwise.
Which state? DMV is my favorite example of government because everything they do is required and everything they do is done terribly. I’ll have to revise if I meet a DMV I like.
Not that I don't believe you, but can you name this mythical state?
I think bureaucracies do tend to suck, but I also think there are often people who stand to gain from making a bureaucracy suck.

For that reason, I suspect it's good idea to leave interpretive space for the possibility that a given bureaucracy has been intentionally hamstrung, or is Kafkaesque by design.

I suspect calling Comcast is miserable because the process is designed to exhaust and manipulate you out of quitting, for example.

I suspect it's possible to build systems that enable you to ensure an ER visit will cost $500 instead of $10000--but our insurance companies may feel like the uncertainty deters people from seeking care.

I think by the time you're saying "my system depends on the people in it being honest and competent" you've kind of already lost. Some people are competent, most aren't. Many people are honest, but some aren't. You aren't going to change that so you have to be resilient to it.
Every system works better with honest and competent people. That’s my point!

Some systems are more resilient to dishonesty and incompetence than others. I suspect a mixed system is the most resilient. But we CAN change the behavior by choosing to reward competence and honesty by who we elect, who we hire, and who we do business with.

What's with the hate for DMVs? Maybe they're bad in some US states, but in mine (Massachusetts), I really can't imagine a better-run business, private or public, that accomplishes so much with so little investment.

You can do most things online with a much better UX than most commercial websites. No crappy ads or pop-ups. Plus when you do need to go in, you book a time slot at a DMV center online.

Recently I had to bring my daughter for a driving license to the one in Brockton, MA. When you go in, they give you a token number. The currently processing token number is shown on a huge LED display on the wall. Hundreds of customers are in there, many of them don't speak much English, etc., but things move pretty smoothly and fast. Very efficient.

The DMV outsourced it's service in some areas. Service improved. So it's possible to benefit from the benefits of public spending and private efficiencies. It's a pretty common method for governments to spend money.
I wonder if the DMV is a bit of a special case, not necessarily a good example of government bureaucracy. The customers are almost universally resentful, because they are paying the government money to let them drive. They're angry because it's slow, and it's slow because the process requires bringing in third-party paperwork (e.g. insurance, sales receipt, dealer paperwork, whatever) and there's a lot of opportunities to get it wrong. So it often involves more than one trip.

If I had to deal with customers at the DMV, I think I'd be grouchy too.

Another reason to try and get as much of it online as possible, which I think is most of it nowadays.

AAA DMV services is amazing. Phenomenally more humanized and efficient. My favorite example of public private partnership.
I know people reactively complain about Comcast, but in my area they do a great job. It's not cheap due to lack of competition, but no complaints about service.
Their prices are high and punitive to existing customers. Their customer service is laughably bad.

One of my requirements of a retirement destination is municipal broadband. No BS, just a fair price for a service that's actually treated like a utility.

This is due to tax policies reducing the revenue pool. This makes it easier to judge individual divisions of the total because there are necessarily fewer outlets, and since it's a smaller pool there's more reason to fight.

The idle rich who can't find anywhere worthwhile to play with their nearly-free money (until recently ZIRPish) are a bug in the system. Oh, but lets pretend we are captains of industry by saturating the world with sure-failures. "I wEnT tO GsB!"

And government is absolutely inefficient, which is a good thing actually. Despite the efforts of conservatives, government still has to account for many many corner cases and special needs. Ask any Agile TDD aficionado how this affects velocity.

I don’t think the government being inefficient is good. It gives ammo to those who are ideologically opposed to government doing things. We should strive to improve government efficiency, especially those of us who think the government should be taking on more tasks.
> We could allocate resources

When you buy/sell crypto - money changes hands. That money wasn't really "allocated" to crypto, beyond miner fees, just redistributed. That cash still exists.

The resources being allocated are graphics cards, human time, and electricity AFAICT.

The power usage of crypto is relatively small compared to other active human endeavors. It's power usage doesn't approach other arbitrary value stores like gold and government backed fiat markets. Could it go somewhere else? Yeah - but could we reasonably produce enough to offset it in a positive sum game - definitely. As long as renewables are cost efficient (read: truly competitive with non-renewables) and are net-zero on emissions this misallocation of resources would be allocated to renewable power production in an efficient market.

Graphics cards being misallocated... I'm not sure saying markets are inefficient because a financial market is outbidding video gamers is a compelling argument. Scientific use of graphics cards seems like a small part of the market, but I may be mistaken here.5

Those other endeavors scale significantly more efficiently and are a necessity.

Gold is a requirement for industrial purposes, for jewellry, for chemical processes for medication.

Visa/Mastercard perform many hundred of thousand transactions per second.

BTC is limited to 350k per day, and consumes the equivalent CO2 impact as Austria. It can't and won't ever scale, which leaves it open to market manipulation and centralization as transactions move off-chain.

It's not a small amount of energy wasted, and there are significantly more valuable uses for that energy, such as aluminum production or water desalination.

>Gold is a requirement for industrial purposes, for jewellry, for chemical processes for medication.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/299609/gold-demand-by-in...

That might be true but 46.64% of gold demand is for "investment", and a further 8.58% is for "central banks". In other words, most gold produced is hoarded and not used for anything productive. If you're against bitcoin because you think it's a non-productive use of energy, you should also be against investment/central bank use of gold.

A quick trip to Wikipedia's bitcoin page yields[1], which, among other comparisons, compares bitcoin's consumed energy to countries. At 145.9 TWh yearly, it's less than Egypt and Poland and greater than Ukraine and Norway. This is up from the 2021 estimates[2] of 121 TWh yearly, larger than the countries of Argentina and Netherlands.

Bitcoin is intentionally wasteful, and I say this as a technical admirer. Its genius is the extremely simple idea of making writes to a distributed database so unimaginably harder than reads, so that untrusted network peers behave themselves and don't invalidate the state of the shared ledger. The network literally just asks you to spend your time counting to N at the top of your lungs so you don't cheat, if that's not waste then I don't know what is waste.

This 'waste' is necessary when you don't trust your peers, you're buying trust with it, cold hard trust, as rock solid as P != NP. But look at the sheer hype crypto has amassed since 2017 and tell me with a straight face that all those "applications" need trustless distributed peers. NFTs literally store the actual data of the token on centralized servers that can go down or go wild with your data at any moment they goddamn please, the NFT on the blockchain is merely a thin reference.

The ideal path for distributed trustless blockchains would have been as a small niche, an "elite shock trooper" technique when distributed trust among trustless peers is absolutely necessary. Ideally, miners would understand the simple fact that it's of no use to keep bringing better and better silicon to the arena, as the network swallows all in its big mouth anyway, and the network would then grow naturally so that it's approximately the power of NETWORK_SIZE * CURRENT_PC_POWER at any current year, instead of a never ending race to the bottom of sacrificing more and more silicon to the God Of The Hash.

Alas, from the crooked timber of humanity no straight thing was ever made.

[1] https://ccaf.io/cbeci/index/comparisons

[2] https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-56012952

IIRC, the energy use for crypto as a whole is on par with the energy use of the fiat currency system, if not higher. I don't know how gold mining ranks, but it may be well below crypto mining in energy use or well above. Mining energy use depends a lot on asset price, and gold prices are comparatively low (compared to other asset classes).

Silicon and other electronic parts also get dumped into this market, when the capacity used to build those devices could be used for other things.

> the energy use for crypto as a whole is on par with the energy use of the fiat currency system

That is an unbelievable statement just on the face of it.

But if we say: "What is the energy use per transaction?" what then?

The inefficiency of crypto currency is legendary.

A good reference to compare bitcoin to gold mining (and other human endeavors like brewing tea): https://ccaf.io/cbeci/index

Gold mining and bitcoin are currently roughly on-par. But gold's energy usage isn't just mining. It's the entire supply chain from Cash 4 Gold stores, long term storage, smelting/recycling, etc. I don't have a good reference for the total cost of gold.

> Most markets that have many individual consumers require regulation to be even close to efficient.

That is not true from what I see (modulo contract enforcement and policing of anti-social elements). There are many examples of smoothly functioning markets. With my economics geek hat on the things required for a market include:

* All participants must have choice, be able to enter and leave in the medium term.

* There must be clear information available about the properties of the goods and/or services

* There must be clear information about the prices.

The first condition (choice) can be rough on suppliers. The "choice" for a coffee shop is closing or bankruptcy. But for the supplier of electricity from a hydroelectric dam the choice is different. There are no clear boundaries.

For the consumer they can substitute potatoes for kumera but there is no substitute for food. Everybody must eat.

So: Reticulated water and electricity are bad things for markets. Vegetables (except during famine) and entertainment services are good

But we don't have a free market.

The government has heavy handed regulations distorting the market and spent the last years creating money out of thin air and killing small businesses.

The government propping the market up during the pandemic kept alive the myth that the market is always growing but also caused a terrible inflation.

Now that the market is going back to reality the government can't just print more money again - or inflation will kill the entire country.

The incoming crash will hopefully pop some of the bubbles the government created in the last 20 years. But it will be painful.

You are ignoring capitalists that abuse the government to distort the market in their favour.
>"We could allocate resources to productive assets by fiscal spending, but that is prevented by politics. Only when "the market" gets its cut can any infrastructure be built in the US. That's also true for much of the medical establishment and pension/retirement systems"

I'm trying to follow this but not understanding it. What do you mean by " Only when "the market" gets its cut". A you referring to public/private partnerships here or pork barrel politics? Something else entirely?

We don't need solar, wind, nuclear, hydro, water reclamation, on shore chip foundries, manufacturing, battery chargers, non-crumbling bridges, manufacturing, paved raids, public transit, or working airports. We need more crud apps and adtech! More stock options and stock buybacks!
You're being sarcastic, but we probably don't need that stuff either. We're eventually going to run out of resources to make all that at some point (we're already starting to run out of sand[1], which we use in modern cement, for glass, and for the silicon in computer chips, for an example -- and before anyone goes 'deserts are full of sand!' they are, but it's the wrong type to make these things).

Probably should start putting some energy into getting ready for pre-industrial age living again.

[1]: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20191108-why-the-world-is...

Ah yes, that old study/book "The Limits to Growth" from 1972. How it haunts me still. Along with the first IPCC report I read 10 years ago. I do wonder what the future (present) holds. Of course, you're right about running out of sand. I hope our standard of living doesn't fall that much. In my lifetime. As was said by everyone for a century.
I believe we reached peak earth in the last two years. It's not just sand or food but also the logistics - people say it's the pandemic stupid or it's obviously the war - but these are all just catalysts.

Too many people just want too much shit. 7 billion people are really not that many - but 7 billion people who wants to live like Westerners that's a big problem.

All the while we are still living in the age of exploitation. We can build marvelous things now but our recycling is still stuck somewhere in the medieval ages...

This whole party can only last if the recycling of an iPhone becomes as financially sexy as building one...

What's wrong with CRUD apps? They may be boring to develop, but they tend to be the most useful.

Every single one of those industries uses multiple CRUD apps in the course of their business operations. The database is one of the most important technologies of our civilization.

I loved me some paid raids! ;)

Snark aside, it is bit disheartening to see all this capital being thrown into handwave-y Web3 verticals.

> I loved me some paid raids! ;)

I used to enjoy MMOs too. I stopped playing and took up gardening of all things :). I'm still not sure what the economic value of web2 is yet, but if you find out I'll attend your showHN.

Always has been.