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I've lived in a handful of countries and UK is where I experienced the most intense classism.

Unlike other countries where class is mostly defined by money, the UK tends to define it in the old school heritage and upbringing sense of the word. No matter if you made millions, unless you have pedigree, you don't belong. Makes me chuckle a bit when people complains about classism in the US.

I'm from the UK and I think that the majority of people think you can't change class. You're born into a class, you can have the lifestyle of a different class if you make or lose a lot of money, if you then have children, they inherit your lifestyle class. This is not a formal rule in the slightest, but it's how most people here think/operate. I'm working class, enjoying a middle class lifestyle now, if I decide to have kids and my situation remains the same, they're middle class; I'm still working class.
Honestly -- I feel like the US works this way also. It's just unspoken and unrecognized. (My POV: raised middle-class, public school (in the US sense), by working-class parents, flirting daily with the lifestyle and members of the upper-middle-class thanks to tech work and salary.)
In the US, we both deflate the open class-ist discussion prevalent in the UK by pretending we are above that, while hypocritically we conflate class with cash -- in effect you buy 'pedigree' which is why our growing nouveau riche are such exceptionally gormless, gaudy jackwagons who often exhibit the worst of all trait-sets: often milquetoast but boorish, pearl-clutching yet belligerent, all while terrified of everything "different"...and we're the greatest place on Earth.

It should be a condition in the DSM-V.

I don't think that's really how we do it in the US. A lot of tradespeople may be rich (making 6 figures in a very low cost of living area), but no one would call them high class, at best they would just be "well off".
6 figures is not rich. Hasn't been for a very long time.
It absolutely is for anywhere in the US except for a handful of metropolitan areas. The median income in the US is still hovering around 30K.
Ironically, respect/disrespect for DSM definitions strikes me as good class marker, at least in the US.
Funny anecdote I have that kinda counters what you say.

I know from family who live where Taylor Swift bought a mansion in RI that she was denied membership to the local yacht club because she was not "old money". I heard this back in 2013 when she first bought the place and I haven't been back so I don't know if that has changed since then.

Maybe some people see the rich as "high-class" not everyone does.

The real reason is that they don't want the paparazzi hanging around and they really don't want the scrutiny into the club's details (like membership lists, past member affiliations, etc) that Ms. Swift would bring along. It's not really a new vs old money thing, but that does make for a better story.
Pretty much its the case EXCEPT maybe the Hamptons, and a few very old (read, direct descendants 'spiritually' to their English colonial forebears) institutions, but the list of spots like that are quite rarified air compared to the UK.
This also happened when Michael Jordan tried to join country club/golf courses in the wealthy northern suburbs of Chicago
The thing that is so foreign to me in the UK is their academic culture.

There are people who literally think there are only two universities worth being at: Cambridge and Oxford. They are shocked when they find candidates from abroad turning down offers for permanent positions there or leaving their positions for somewhere else.

As a brit I get quite frustrated by this too. The obsession with Oxford and Cambridge is hugely frustrating. We have many really good universities, but somehow many people will just never be able to get over the obsession with oxbridge.
As a non Brit but had a permanent position in Oxbridge, my advice was to look beyond the UK.

Even within Europe, there are many institutes that are strictly better than oxbridge. If you’re a scientist, there is no point in being too narrow and confining yourself to UK.

I would agree though that at the undergraduate level oxbridge is excellent. Postgraduate what matters actually is the advisor and grant money.

As a Brit, I’d agree that classicism is bad here, and it feels worse than the US. However, much of Europe is the same. E.g. France.
From my more distant (US) perspective, the classism in France is different. It's based on what university you went to, not who your ancestors were.
It's based on social codes more than anything, similar to other countries. There are preferred vectors of transmission for such codes. In France some schools my play a part but I don't believe it's so segregated. The role of grandes écoles is overblown and they're not nearly as influential as Ivy League schools and Oxbridge are in the US and UK. I'd say the high school you went to is probably a more important factor, as are the extra-curricular activities you were doing growing up, in deciding which class you fit in.
Could you expand in this? Do you mean material way of life or how people treat each other socially.
For me it's a combination of how people talk about others 'below' their class, and how much social mixing between the classes there is - but I realise that this is very hard to measure. Just my 2c having lived in UK, Europe, and US.
The French literally executed away their class system.
Of course they didn't, unless you are using some extremely narrow and historical definition of "class". France still have significant wealth inequality and rent-seeking, so by most modern definitions of "class" they certainly have a class system.
There's a facinating article on by Scott Alexander about classism in the US https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/book-review-fussell-on...
> No matter if you made millions, unless you have pedigree, you don't belong.

It works the other way also......... plenty members of our upper class aristocracy are penniless, but are, and remain, upper class.

I always find the US approach to equating money with class rather amusing.

For those not familiar with UK media, The Guardian (better known as The Grauniad due to the frequency of spelling mistakes in its pages) is a very left-leaning paper.

Therefore topics such as private members' clubs are to be considered fair game for The Guardian as its the sort of place their readership would not be seen dead.

I would suggest that the truth is somewhere half-way between two sides of the proverbial coin.

There are some clubs that do indeed have a bit of a reputation. The Carlton Club mentioned in the first paragraph for example. As one Londoner put it to me in relation to the alleged Pincher incident, "if it was bad enough to raise eyebrows at the Carlton Club, it must have been bad".

Moving more to the other side of the coin, the Reform Club also mentioned in the article is not particularly controversial. Sure some of its ways may be old-fashioned my modern standards (e.g. wearing of ties by gentlemen is NOT optional). However for the non-Londoner for example, membership does have its benefits in that they have a small number of accommodation rooms available at a nightly rate that you would be hard pushed to find in such a central location, especially during peak season.

Finally, firmly on the other side of the coin are those clubs that try to scrape by a living by catering for pursuits that are rather more rarified in the modern age. For example, anyone who's anyone in the Bridge world will know of the Portland Club, the main parameter for membership there being a (very!) decent Bridge player (a fact that will need to be vouched for by your proposer and seconder). You won't find any debauchery at the Portland Club, its a serious club for serious people !

Other examples exist, but point being to take The Guardian's opinion on such matters with a pinch of salt.

Did you read the article? It's just a review of a book - the article itself doesn't have much to say either way about modern clubs, besides acknowledging the recent Pincher news.
> Did you read the article?

Briefly skimmed through it yes.

But surely the average HN reader will know from the tech world that choice of item to review and style of review is down to editorial discretion.

One might say that The Guardian is doing the very English thing of finding a way to say something without saying it.

you didn't even click the damn link.
|> For those not familiar with UK media, The Guardian (better known as The Grauniad due to the frequency of spelling mistakes in its pages) is a very left-leaning paper.

It’s left of centre, but not ‘very left’.

And ‘The Grauniad’ is a very niche term - I’ve never heard it used in conversation, and have only ever seen it used in Private Eye.

The Guardian has some absurdly left-leaning articles. Like, I’m fairly far left, but I eventually unsubscribed from the Guardian because it was just comical.
The guardian might be left leaning, but specifically, middle/upper middle class in its left leaning-ness.

Another point to note: Soho House, much loved by some of the HN readership, is a private members club.

Soho House is just silly now, I literally know of law firms handing memberships out as an employment perk.

So much for being a cool place for creative folks, now they just let everybody in.

Also, at least in London the clubs simply suck. 0 atmosphere, even Annabel’s with it’s older crowd and their sugar babes is much more fun.

I mean, lawyers and creative folk aren't mutually exclusive. Most of the time when lawyers are criticised in the media it's for their "creativity".

Surely one of the benefits of being in a club like this is that you get to meet people outside your circle, people who aren't exactly like you. If you want a programmer-only social club, could you not just hang out at the office?

You make it sound like they're printing Lenin or something lol, they're a little left but certainly not 'very.'

Furthermore, why wouldn't a topic like private members' clubs be fair game for any sort of major journalistic outfit?

I feel for balance then that I strongly disagree that the guardian is VERY left leaning. It leans left for sure but primarily centre-left.
The perception of politics is being skewed by the heavily extremist right-wing US, that's my best guess anyhow
>The Guardian [...] is a very left-leaning paper.

This is A. Not true, and B. Not the perjorative you think it is. The Guardian is as milquetoast and centrist as it's possible to get.

“Left-leaning” and “right-leaning” are somewhat objective. Add the word very to either, and suddenly we are much more in subjective eye-of-the-beholder territory. What’s “centrism” or “moderation” or “milquetoast” to one person will be seen as “radicalism”, even “extremism”, by another.
Just wait till you get to the opinion section. They enjoy their sexism.
> e.g. wearing of ties by gentlemen is NOT optional

This doesn’t feel so old fashioned to me. Just good sense.

The dress code at the Reform is strict but ties are in fact optional.
Will dang appear out of nowhere to condemn this post like he did when Bari Weiss was criticized for her "common sense" BS website or "ad hominem" (per him) is fair game against left wing media?
I have no idea what you're referring to but, if you have to ask in such a fashion then probably not.

You'll eventually learn that every online community has its own particular brand of bias and implicit editorial slant, if you will.

HN is no exception. There are certain topics that are simply not kosher here, irrespective of what people say.

The sooner you make your peace with that the better.

I had a membership in my own national version of these clubs, and travelled throughout some of their sister clubs in the US, and they are truly precious and rare experiences. I gave up my membership while attempting a bootstrapped startup where I burned all my boats to succeed, and after spending a few years financially recovering, covid, but also some other social factors, I have yet to renew it. I've been back for some of their events, and they have also had to change tack to stay afloat. The joke around the club at the time about membership was, "we do need new members because at the rate we're going broke, we've probably only got another 100 years." As it had been well managed and well capitalized.

The thing about any elite organization is an immense amount of effort goes into preserving and growing it, and everyone is always disappointed at how the new crop of members isn't of the quality of ones own cohort, which is as ridiculous but persistent as it sounds. Whether it's White's or Burning Man, a scene is a scene is a scene.

The service is next level, and the best way to describe it is it's something you can't merely pay for, and I told the staff more than once that I mostly come here to remind myself that there were still things for me to do where I might eventually become worthy of the service they provided. The thing about the clubs is that there are no prices on the menus, (though mercifully they put them on the wine and scotch lists) not because they expect you to afford it, but because if you are there, it is within expectations and it's taken care of. I would say "The Continental" in the John Wick series actually captures the culture and experience well, if a bit over egged.

I actually joined in my late 20s because I lived in a rented apartment in the city and didn't have a cottage or a place where I could entertain and reciprocate the hospitality so many others had offered me, and so my club membership was a way for me to have something that was mine to share. Membership isn't a validation or having made it, what makes it so good is that it is something that's yours to share.

The dress codes have relaxed in the more established places, but there is still a sense of respect and dignity that I don't think the new ones have managed to capture. Sure, they may have celebrities and influencers, but they don't have the basic comfort of someone saying, "welcome back, sir. you once mentioned you liked wines from this region so we picked up a case on our last order."

Friends' reactions to it were different. People with a chip on their shoulders about what they percieved the clubs to represent were uncomfortable, but I could usually win them over. It was always the most epic surprise to be out for after work drinks and grabbing a small crew to take them through the secret entrance into a place with incredible luxury. The characters who inhabited it were a mix of people who never used it and showed up once a year, to the occasional grifter on the make, and sort of lost downwardly mobile types like me thinking this is just what one did.

What I would say to anyone joining one is this: the staff have spent their careers to become the very best in the world at what they do, and the thing they value most is someone who truly appreciates what they do. The entire raison for a club is to provide welcome, comfort, and surprising delight to people who value it, and they structure the costs to make something so awesome economical. The traditions they have are worth observing because it's what makes them good. If you approach any one of them with an open mind and with the simple humility of asking what the rules and protocols are, and maintain that humble openness, you will be absolutely welcomed in almost every single one of them.

What makes a club great is its membership, and after a few years it clicks that what makes these places so legendary are people like you, and it's on you to be a steward of it.

What an excellent comment. Thank you for sharing, it was a great read!
Interesting snippet but I wish they had given us more detail about the clubs!
They’re not as mysterious as implied. They’re essentially private hotels, with restaurants and bars. You know the other members and the staff, and they have social events, so it’s like a hotel where you’re more likely to bump into someone you know.

The dress codes might sound odd to someone from the US, but really a jacket and tie is not an abnormal dress code for nice London places in general.

If any of my close tech friends want to visit a London club some time I will take them to mine for lunch or a drink. They aren’t that secret!

They give you just enough to tempt you into ordering the full book. FTA:

  Thévoz’s book is at its best when it covers the “eccentricities” of this world. 
  Clubland is, after all, a place where a sign can read “members are asked not to 
  bring their mistresses to dine at the club, unless they are the wives of other 
  members”
I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member. - Groucho Marx

Where does one find the time to be idle?