Against Discipline

If life were a zero-sum game and I had no regard for others, I'd be glad about others not being self-disciplined, as that would mean more room for me to succeed by being disciplined myself. But it's not a zero-sum game. The more of us who work hard at important things in life, the better off we all will be.

So please do apply self-discipline in your life. Having no discipline is like having a car with an engine that stops running frequently and won't exceed 2000 RPM.

Hard work does get easier in time, like working a muscle. And just like working out, you need to pace yourself -- approach hard work wisely and don't overdo it, even if you're enjoying it immensely.

I'm so glad my mom forced me to practice the piano - I wouldn't be the musician I am today without it... and I have no regrets about working hard at front-end web development. I owe my career in large part to the many hours I spent poring over JavaScript: The Definitive Guide and writing SPA web apps while others at my workplace were still using ASP and WebForms.

This topic has been on my mind for a couple years now, and it's interesting how I came to a similar conclusion as the author.

There are a ton of things I really enjoy doing: running, boxing, playing music, writing, drawing... however, I always struggle to get started. It always feels like a chore and I'm baffled as to why. I should be excited about initiating any of those activities, but I'm not! The moment they enter a to-do list, I know they also enter the realm of procrastination and avoidance. It's weird.

As I grow older and more experience, I realize "it's all in the mind". If you have the right mindset towards the activity you want to do, you have 80%+ of the job done.

Using running as an example, I went from running a couple days per week to running every day. Why? Simply put, a mentality shift. Before, I would think about it as "I should run at least 30 mins, 3 days per week". Now, I think about it as: "Let's move a bit, go to that nice canal by the river". In a nutshell... I moved my mindset from "I must be disciplined" to "let's play", pretty much as the author states.

There is a lot of wisdom in this. "Discipline" is quite often "punitive." You think "if I don't force myself, I won't do it."

The more you practice this, the less you trust yourself: "I'm bad, and if I'm not constantly on guard, I'll relapse into badness."

If you think you'll never clean the garage unless you force yourself, you foreclose any chance that some day, you'll think "You know what? I feel like cleaning the garage right now."

"That'll never happen!" you think? Such a low opinion you have of yourself.

I think the author is confusing discipline with... something. Discipline is not simply doing things you don't like. It's a trained mentality that helps you do what needs doing (or not doing, such as procrastinating).

Making some activities more playful, and therefore pleasant, has it's own merits, but life isn't so kind as to make the whole of your existence a playground. At some point, you really do have to buckle down, whether or not it is fun. A disciplined attitude will definitely be a benefit.

Discipline is what you have to use when you don't have a habit. Once you have built the habit to do the thing, discipline doesn't enter the picture. It's the default. You don't buy candy because buying candy is not a thing you do. You go running because it's 9 am on a Monday and that's what you do every Monday at 9 am.

I guess somehow when I was a child my parents thought me something I cannot fully understand now. Nowadays I cannot enjoy entertaining myself if I haven't first finished my "homework" (as an adult, my homework is: work, chores,... the usual stuff).

So, I have this kind of "discipline" not because I enjoy doing "homework" but because I want to fully enjoy my free time without thinking "damn, when I'm done playing video games I have to wash the dishes".

As a kid I could never understood the other kids that on a Friday afternoon were going out to play knowing that they had homework to do in the weekend. I was like "I cannot enjoy playing basketball now knowing that later on or tomorrow I'll have to do the maths homework... so let's first finish the maths homework and then I'll have the entire day/weekend to do whatever the hell I want".

Not sure if this is a good or a bad thing. It's normal to me at my age, though.

As a fairly "disciplined" person, it's easy for me to say "Yeah, but..." to this, but being open to serendipity has real benefits, when it comes to creativity and "big ideas."

But she is not just talking about that. She's also talking about letting go of discipline, as tool for self-improvement, and mental health.

I can see that. It would not work for me, but it is not a bad thing.

The issue that I always have, about people prescribing What Works For Me, to others, is that it often doesn't work, in other people. Not judging others, when something that we do/take pride in does not apply, can be difficult.

I enjoy living in a world of variety. People that are different from me, make my life richer. In order to have this richness, I need to accept those that differ from me. That can be a challenge.

Getting back to "discipline," I have heard a quote:

"Winners do what they have to do, and losers do what they want to do."

I'm not a fan of the terms "winners" and "losers," but that's just me, and the approach I take. The quote does have a good message, if we don't get hung up on the terms used to describe people.

Welcome to hustle porn culture. Where your self worth is derived from what you're currently doing.

Do nothing = worthless.

I just want to stress one thing: starting some activity is hard. Once I started an activity it is usually not that unpleasurable at all, even things like doing taxes, cleaning, writing this email I tried avoiding for weeks, etc.

For me that means that reducing the barrier to start is the most important aspect to get things done, gamification (as suggested in the article) can help of course.

>What if the moment our better self suggests an early bedtime or a lap in the pool or writing a poem, it starts to sound like a scolding parent telling us what we ought to do. So we become a little like a stubborn child, asserting our independence by digging in and not moving.

It's Freudian psychology [1] that adults are the ones who have integrated their super-ego into their ego. If there is a separation between 'self' and 'better self', then the development doesn't seem to be finished.

Like the author, I don't like to do the stuff that the better self suggests. I can trick myself to follow the better self with discipline or by gamifying the task, but I don't know how to overcome the separation and make those tasks 'mine'.

Does anybody know how to do the integration?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psyche_(psychology)#Freudian_s...

The dutch word "prestatiemaatschappij" is fitting here, meaning "performance society".

It suggests that life is fast, nothing but duties, must-dos, which when fully internalized will also apply to leisure. Relaxing is a task as is keeping in touch with friends. As you engage in the task, your thoughts are with the next task. You're never in the moment, nothing is spontaneous, it's robotic.

You're juggling 10 balls and are doing an adequate job in not dropping any of them. You master a "full" life.

But you don't. You've removed life itself.

>I know, too, that slipping into bed is one of the most delicious sensations there is, so why do I postpone that feeling every night, as though determined to be miserable and tired the next day?

hits too close to home

It's not clear to me what the author is suggesting. Yes, I agree we focus a bit too much on self improvement and perhaps should relax about certain things. But if I start to believe that, for medical reasons, or any other reason, I really should go to the gym, and I struggle doing it because I feel it's not my environment, how do I start without a bit of self-discipline?

I could choose another sport, one that is actually fun and I look forward to -- I've done that, but even in that case, sometimes I feel lazy. What is it that I should do?

This comment section is depressing. We take ourselves too seriously.

Well, discipline is nothing more really than a delayed gratification rule set. Kids refuse a bath usually not because they’re rebelling against themselves or the parents, but because they don’t get the concept of delayed gratification yet. You make little sacrifices in the present to ensure better future.

This is going to sound slightly harsh, and by no means it’s an invitation to stop thinking or pondering, I think it’s kind of good to be skeptical and think of possible major oversights in the way we live our life, but this kind of hairsplitting wordsmithing is useless, and possibly what is causing this person to neglect that discipline is just a helpful concept. Reading “an embarrassing amount” of self-help books is not a good sign either, but yes, the majority of that crap is just that; crap.

No one can teach you or force you to like exercise, until you do it and like it, then you understand, then you’ll probably fall off the wagon a couple of times, but at least you’ll know that you’re just being lazy, and that’s fine sometimes, but mostly you’ll have to gain experience in fighting laziness tendencies, and it’s probably harder for some people than others depending on many variables I can’t even list.

Biggest factor for people not having discipline (or not wanting to have it, not liking it, etc…) is that they want a quick solution that makes sense, where the answer is that it’s always difficult, you just have to learn to enjoy it and find ways to come to terms with it. Practice more and do it again.

The author is not rebelling against discipline, but really against the self help industry.

The issues in the article seem quite complex to me. But every time I re-read the first three paragraphs, I cannot help but think, "Irina Dumitrescu is a sage."

Discipline is a multifaceted thing. The discipline required for success is not merely a "go put yourself in the chair and type it out", nor is making the task "fun" or "play" quite the same thing. Discipline is also for the mind itself. To be more successful, one must curate the thoughts that he/she has. If there is a thought that is particularly destructive it might be time to apply some CBT/meditation/therapy to figure out why that thought is there and how to make it stop. There is a difference between doing the things one must do and fighting oneself the entire time, and doing the things that one must do and not minding doing so. In one of these, you have imposed discipline, and in the other you have self-discipline.

I am still not as productive as many people I know, but if instead of comparing myself to others I compare to who I was vs who I am... I have made outrageous improvements.

EDIT: To me, the single most glorious thing about being a human is that I can choose to change my mind and then actually do so. It may be difficult, it may take time, but I can change my nature unlike the other creatures of this Earth who seem to be a bit more static.

Delayed gratification? That's one way to put it. Another way is "different gratification". Instead of eating chocolate you are eating a dream of future chocolate.

So becoming disciplined could be called developing a taste for dreams.

When the glow of accomplishing a step in your 12 step plan towards chocolate-accquirement is actually more satisfying than eating the chocolate, a shift in taste has occurred. And they call you "disciplined".

>"few people really need advice about how to live their lives. They know how they ought to be living their lives. The trick is learning how to follow their own best instinct."

I don't think it's that simple. I think it's worth questioning whether the wants you have that you're battling so hard with are actually your wants rather than the desires of others. It's not so easy to figure out what your own instinct is.

I think what manifests as a need for discipline quite often is people trying to mold themselves into something that they simply aren't without recognizing that fact. The author mentions sleep hygiene and that is an example for me. I've struggled with proper 'sleep hygiene' a lot, and of course I thought i just need more discipline. During the pandemic doing remote work I figured out that I actually love having a really weird sleep schedule, it's just hard to square with an ordinary work day.

I think it's actually easy to declare oneself lazy and in need of discipline, rather than changing things up to do what you genuinely want to do.

There's this metaphor where you have a King (discipline) and a Queen (spontaneousness).

They have to "marry" in order for you to be the most productive person.

If your King tries to command your Queen and she refuses, it's not going to go well. As the author has already seen, it's quite hard to go to sleep or have fun by a decree.

Timing is hard.

Sometimes I break up my day relaxing I come back and I'm super productive.

But often, it's harder to get back to productivity. Especially when I got into social mode, it's hard to get back to focus mode.

If I need more stress relief time I've easier to finish things in mornings, and then just do rest of day or days off.

Genius does what it must. Talent does what it can. You do what you're told.

I think the self-help literature consensus is not on discipline, but on habits. Especially “atomic habits” are a popular term.

While “discipline“ implies conscious effort, “habit” aims to move into subconscious, I guess.

Without discipline you get to nowhere. At the start discipline is hard because we are a human which our brain wants to do the easiest task available to preserve energy. to prevent this situation we have to train our brain to obey us not otherwise. repeating this pattern lets your mind knows that you are the boss not itself.

The critical part here is *you have to separate yourself from your mind/brain*, in other words you are not your mind/emotions. You can control them or otherwise being over controlled by them.

Interesting read about overcoming resistance for creative work: The War of Art by Steven Pressfield. It kinda has the opposite view of this "Against Discipline" post :)

Sounds more like an issue of perspective. She repeatedly states that once she overcomes her resistence she's happy she did the thing. So she just needs to be able to be not-swimming yet able to see the fun of swimming.

Some kind of broadening of perspective is called for. To contain these disparate states simultaneously.

I think this would be the opposite of focus. Which could be the central problem. We love focus, or something.

Love the false dichotomy of you either having to work hard or being yourself. People will go at amazing lengths to justify being lazy. :)

This got me thinking. For regularly scheduled activities don't tell yourself or others "I have to go XXX today" but instead "I get to go XXX today". This changes an obligation into an opportunity. You may laugh, but I've found the way I phrase things - even to myself - can have an effect on how I feel about them.

Does anybody know what the first popular "Against Something" was?

My guess is it was Feyerabend's Against Method...

Generalized too much. Discipline is nothing but execution on an optimization. It would be a mistake by shallow analysis to blame discipline for an optimization that is not taking you to the destiny and journey you want in your life.

She is totally right about Cross Fit, tho. That injury factory only benefits physiotherapists.

I think this article is a very narrow topic in how it once you can get yourself to enjoy that “tough task”, it excuses the need for discipline. It’s one of many ways to get yourself to do something, won’t work in a lot of tasks, or even very difficult. You’d need discipline just to try to make it like a game.

The thing about play is that it's not mandatory. When it's not fun, you are free to not do it. This is why it's a luxury, and most often it's not a thing you get paid to do.

— One does not really need money.

— It's fun to say so when you got the money.

— It is, indeed!

"So we become a little like a stubborn child, asserting our independence by digging in and not moving."

Some people look outside at the pool and hear the play people call them racist terms. They get bullied into things they dont want. They try over and over, and they couldn't help the racist people be better.

And the adults they went to for help laughed and joked about them. Saucy unfunny jokes that are going to stick with them for life, jokes that minimize their own stories.

So they're exhausted. So exhausted. Some of them didn't even want to be authors, they said no to typewriters at garage sales, but still it didn't stop.

But they won't give up. Life is wonderful and goes on for several more years.

And the crappy part is people like that, who had a history of voting for progressive causes, lose a little empathy and trust. Because they said stop.

Discipline is really about greater long term gains versus lesser short term costs. Determining whether the long term gains are actually greater in any given situation is one of the challenges.

Not to be funny, but how is this not a case of self-inflicted victimhood?

This is much less about disciplin and more just pining over spilt milk.

I suspect most of us have a serious imbalance in our lives between productive work, leisure, and recreation. See Louis Kelso and Mortimer Adler's book "The Capitalist Manifesto" for a rich discussion of these topics. They define 'leisure' somewhat counter-intuitively as work, but the sort of work that elevates the mind or advances the common good -- as opposed to the productive work one is required to do in order to earn a living.

Leisure for them is very different from recreation, which is a kind of rest -- think board games, light reading, hiking, Netflix, etc. Everyone needs all three of these things in their lives (leisure, productive work, and recreation) but we often get them confused or end up overemphasizing one to the neglect of the others.

I wonder if OP is saying something similar or at least resonant with this -- basically that we shouldn't treat everything in our lives like productive work.

This article felt like a way to lying to oneself. "I'm not lazy, I just want to be myself!".

Life is painful. Sorry, that's the truth. If you won't work, someone else WILL and they WILL take your job.