Item — HN Reader

Evan will be giving a talk about "Elm on the Backend" later this month.

[1] https://gotoaarhus.com/2023/sessions/2529/elm-on-the-backend

The video will not be published online.

> NOTE: My goal is to get some early feedback from the in-person audience, so the video will be held back for now. I am not announcing a release, and the roadmap and this status update are still the primary documents for long-time Elm users to set expectations about this work.

[2] https://github.com/elm/compiler/blob/master/roadmap.md

[3] https://discourse.elm-lang.org/t/status-update-3-nov-2021/78...

EDIT:

In the second link, Evan says the following:

> As I allude to in the roadmap 410, nearly ten years of working in constant interaction with “silicon valley mindset” had taken a toll on me in many ways. Within the dominant value system, there are specific rewards and punishments for specific behaviors, and despite my personal views on this value system, I had internalized certain patters of thought and behavior by interacting with it online.

I think sometimes HN gets excited about technology and forgets that tech is made by humans.

Just a reminder to be kind :)

2 comments

This 'reminder to be kind' bullshit is why I got so frustrated with Elm, and ultimately quit using it. For the same reasons, I actively recommend against using it, and I will recommend any place I find using it to migrate away. And I love the actual language and approach, it's in many ways the best experience I ever had in web programming. Ruined by this awful passive aggressive approach to management which itself triggers criticism (by the Elm 'team' disengaging at the slightest hint of 'negativity' such that everyone is always walking around Evan on eggshells).

For an example see e.g. https://lukeplant.me.uk/blog/posts/why-im-leaving-elm/

Evan has always hid away from confrontation about his work.

I want to be kind, but sometimes you also have to be HONEST.

Evan doesn't just hide from confrontation. He and his team bans everyone who are confrontational. Like me. They wouldn't even acknowledge that they banned me, which is just cowardly. No one I worked with who used Elm would go close to talking with their own account on the Elm reddit because they were sure they'd get banned.

I argue hard because I was raised that way and I believe it's the best way to quickly find the truth. Like Steve Jobs said: strong opinions, loosely held. You argue hard, then when you are convinced by the other side, you flip with absolutely no time in between trying to "save face".

I believe kindness and honesty are orthogonal.

> He and his team bans everyone who are confrontational.

I have a very distinct vibe. And sometimes people don’t want me at their parties because I don’t fit their vibe. Sometimes I’m invited to parties and then asked to leave because I don’t fit the vibe. I don’t think anybody at fault in these situations :) It’s hard to curate communities, and it’s hard to fit in

In my opinion, Daniel Dennett's quote, "There is no polite way to suggest to someone that they have devoted their life to a folly," is highly relevant to this situation, and I respectfully disagree with your viewpoint.

Thank you for being respectful :) no offense taken

“Is it my fault if you can't handle the truth” - http://agileotter.blogspot.com/2019/09/is-it-my-fault-you-ca... discussed here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35475482