Car Bloat: “Huge Cars Are Terrible for Society”

The French came up with a poignant term for this: "Autobesity"[1]

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/11/paris-charge-s...

Car registration shouldn't be based on the value of the car, it should be based on how heavy the car is. Because heavier cars cause more wear on the road, they should pay more for road repair.

We should also ease a lot of regulation from states regarding minimum road width, minimum parking spot sizes, minimum height of parking garages, minimum number of parking spots for residential and commercial development. Much of this problem stems from bad regulation. (Developers generally don't want to have all this unproductive space in their buildings, but are forced to by local and state governments.)

Related: "Vehicles and Crashes: Why is this Moral Issue Overlooked?" https://www.jstor.org/stable/23562447

Which argues that because larger cars are more likely to injure/kill someone in the event of a crash, buying a larger car makes you morally culpable for all such harms.

Discussed more here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35082315

We are likely reaching a point where it is becoming absurd, to have a huge, 4,000lbs vehicle carrying one person most of the time. Feels like an arm escalation, I need a bigger and heavier vehicle so I feel safer.

Not sure what is the best way to bring some sense to this trend. Regulation could put some boundaries I guess. Clearly there is little incentives for car manufacturers to go small & light.

If that trend keeps going, I could see some cities banning cars in some streets (e.g. only bikes or pedestrians) as having foot traffic close to car traffic would become too dangerous.

Here's a depressing thought: I'm from the Netherlands. We're dense and have small roads and parking spots. So monster trucks like these are impractical, expensive to own (road tax based on weight) and expensive to drive due to the poor mileage and high gas prices.

None of these things seems to matter. I'm in my 40s and can't remember seeing a single car like this in my entire life until about 5 years ago. Now I very regularly see them, they're on the rise.

Some people just want to have a huge fucking truck for no apparent rational or adult reason. And it seems that as they make an appearance, it inspires others.

It fits in a generic pattern I'm seeing around me. People with disposable wealth will spent it on ridiculous life "upgrades" that make no rational sense. I'm seeing giant houses being built whilst there's 1-2 people living in it, and most of the day nobody at all. I'm talking about homes with so much space that you don't know what to do with it. Just because you can.

In these times of energy transition and ultra high energy prices, I see neighbors investing in an outdoor sauna.

It's not that I want to police what people can or cannot spent their money on, I'm just saying it's way out of bounds. Beyond the reasonable. Excessive resource usage with no immediate purpose by any stretch of the imagination.

But I'll also come to terms with the idea that perhaps I'm not that much better. My guilty pleasure is annual very remote travel, which as we know is a massive contributor to CO2 output.

If taxation or discouragement does not have the desired effect and banning is difficult if not unwanted, my conclusion is that behavioral change is not to be expected much from.

Well this, plus also cities that are designed for cars first.

I would love to see more cities design for people/pedestrians first, with denser multi-zone areas. I wish more people could walk to a neighborhood grocery, bar, library, etc.

So many issues in society can be quickly, intuitively, and uncontroversially identified as a “tragedy of the commons” situation. But it’s a hard sell to give up a personal advantage for a collective betterment.

Not being able to see for 12 feet in front of your vehicle should be illegal. The only reason trucks are allowed to have that is because they are pegged as farm equipment. Treat them as farm equipment. Special license to drive if visibility is impacted, special taxation for large vehicle without a business use case, you name it.

Wonder how much of this is just due to how massive the us is and how far we drive. I have kids so drive a minivan. It's got 3 rows of seats and storage behind. I genuinely use all the rows fairly often or if not in use I fold them down for larger space in the back. Space I often use.

Not saying I couldn't make due with a smaller car but it would definitely make things more complicated.

People spec their cars for the biggest usage case they can imagine, not their average trip.

Cities could combat this by setting up a rent a big f off truck for 24hrs program I suspect. For that one time in the year when you have to haul some lumber.

The male ego part is a little harder to solve.

Cars are bigger now because emissions rules are stricter for sedans and other reasonably sized vehicles, it's a yet another cautionary tale about the unintended consequences of government regulations.

Moved to the UK from the US in 2017. Visited my hometown with my new family in 2022 for the first time due to the pandemic. I was blown away at how massive the trucks had become in that span for no useful reason. Europe is on the other end of the spectrum, granted, but it didn't even seem out of the ordinary to see F150s that are essentially F350s from a few model-years back with a single occupant wrapped around the double drive-through lanes of the local Chick-Fil-A and backing up traffic all the way into the main thoroughfare. It's so obvious how ruinous this is for even the basic civil engineering.

As you might expect from such a polarizing issue and thread, doing some research shows that the JD Power and Associates stat (80% of sold cars are trucks and SUVs) is extremely misleading, and probably meant to just be a headline-grabber. It includes glorified hatchbacks (that might be raised by 1-2 inches) like the Kona, CX-3, C-HR, HR-V, Crosstrek, Mercedes GLA, BMW X1, and Infiniti QX30.

I've been living in Europe for many years. Never needed a car, and moved around cities on a bicycle, public transportation, and sometimes a cab. On a train/plane for longer distances. Safe, healthy, pleasant, loved it.

Moved to the US last fall. One can't live here without a car anywhere outside NYC (and maybe Boston/Chicago?).

The reason is not just the car-centric cities design. It's the individualism culture, the severe income inequality, and the crime levels. I'm not advocating for or against the US culture to be clear, just pointing out the slightly less obvious causes of the car use.

Please link to the original source:

https://mastodon.social/@davidzipper/110843841107933007

At the opposite end if the size spectrum, the Citroen Ami is enough for a majority of everyday needs in cities. So much space saved.

https://electrek.co/2021/05/04/citroen-ami-small-electric-ca...

Not Just bikes made an excellent video about it: https://nebula.tv/videos/notjustbikes-these-stupid-trucks-ar...

It is an arms race.

There is a video floating around of a pickup truck who needs to use his front camera to see a Miata in front of him

Ironically this is almost entirely due to US enviromental regulations punishing smaller more effeciant vehicles. The standards force larger gas guzzlers becuase the MPG limits are based on ft2 size of the chassis therefore you have to make them large to meet standards.

You can't find small trucks anymore due to CAFE standards as automakers upsize trucks in order to lower MPG requirements. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_average_fuel_economy There is alot of small light duty that the US is missing compared to the rest of the world due to how the standards work.

For example a small pick up truck like an S10 would need 50+mpg but add 20 ft2 to increase it to the size of the standard american trucks you see it mpg requirement becomes 32mpg. Hence why trucks like the S10 has completely vanished. Mind you the automakers lobby for this becuase it prevent affordable truck from being sold forcing only the high profit large gas guzzler trucks as the only option.

On one hand, the local governments are deciding to not enforce road laws, so I don't blame normal folks deciding to get larger cars to feel safer.

[1] https://sfstandard.com/2023/01/11/sf-police-watchdogs-set-to....

[2] https://www.kron4.com/news/bay-area/person-shot-while-drivin...

The problem is they don’t make full-sized cars anymore (the “land yachts”). To get a comfortable car, you need to buy a truck or essentially a truck (SUV).

Link should probably be replaced with the direct link: https://mastodon.social/@davidzipper/110843841107933007

I'm from the UK and don't understand the desire for massive cars, absolutely nothing seems designed for vehicles this wide. Does it not just make life a whole lot harder?

In London we still have streets and river crossings that were built for horse drawn carriages, but every other car is a giant. Almost no parking seems suitable either.

The Ford Ranger is the most comically out of place, love the colours and looks but the fact you could fit in a few sheets of 8x4 plywood whilst doing the school run can't possibly be applicable to many.

It's the sight-lines that are driving me nuts. I'm 6', and I can just barely see over the hoods of the new trucks and SUV's. When did all the automakers get together and agree to make them as stylish as a brick? I've almost gotten hit in parking lots twice this year, because I can't see around them in the car. We need to rewrite the rules on how much space a car park slot takes, because these new vehicles have to turn in their mirrors automagically just to fit in them now.

I recently got a new vehicle and went to great lengths to find a smaller electric that would fit my needs. My wife argued that this was a bad move, however:

> Tall vehicles have bigger blind spots and are more likely to strike a person’s torso or head.

New vehicles have a billion sensors and cameras that eliminate blind spots and warn you aggressively if you're about to do something stupid, so it's a moot point.

> US automakers offer no alternative, and car bloat pushes buyers to upsize – if only to avoid being at a disadvantage on the road b/c others have big cars.

This is a reason why it's _better_ to have a bigger car. If you're in an accident and you're the smaller car you're going to be worse off, and since so many people are driving tanks these days you're putting yourself at a much higher risk if you don't also drive one.

And while it's true that the roads and planet are worse off, until _everyone_ around you also starts downsizing their cars, it's a matter of balancing the minuscule amount of environmental good that you as an individual driving a slightly smaller car might achieve versus the additional risk that you're putting yourself in by driving a smaller car.

Fleet economy standards are based on the footprint of the vehicle. The bigger it is the lower the MPG has to be. It’s an unintended side effect of regulation.

Isn't mpg also a factor in terms of emissions? A lot of these tanks are gonna be more thirsty. SUVs also account for much of the increase in co2 emissions although when I read that stat it didn't breakdown where in the world those SUVs are being bought (I imagine some are being bought in developing economies that are adopting an American model).

Unfortunately small trucks have pretty much disappeared in the US and partly due to government rules: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azI3nqrHEXM

I haven't yet seen this proposed on this thread: require larger vehicles to have passive braking and a high level of driver assist and cameras with machine vision that warns drivers of cyclists and pedestrians.

I feel like the perspective is off. Sure people are trading cars for SUVs and trucks. But does anyone else see that they don't really make full size cars anymore? Cars have been shrinking for decades. Even the "full size" cars today have cramped interiors. Perhaps if consumers had better options for cars, then they wouldn't be buying larger vehicles. Cars like my 89 Caprice were a nice size.

HN seems kind of obsessed with this topic. I wonder why it's a pertinent discussion point right now. I remember discussing the subject 20 years ago so it's not a new phenomenon. I've managed to not own an suv in that time but most of my peers seem to think they're a requirement as soon as you have a kid.

Everything is getting bigger. Not only cars and trucks, but motorcycles too! It doesn't end there - our houses are also getting bigger. Our portions of food are getting bigger. As a result of all this we're all getting bigger.

None of this is any good for us, but I don't know what needs to happen to reverse this trend.

It's hypocritical trend. We talk about reducing emissions but produce and buy cars that are 20 times or more heavier than our bodies and ratio increasing every year.

Also we talk about lack of parking places at cities and again... We produce bigger cars.

Obviously its just a game for some.

I have a big car, i have kids and its great for trips. I also pull a camper on occasion so its useful. I think for those purposes it works great. Once my kids are out of the house, i will easily down size and even possibly sell the camper.

A lot of car bloat is response to regulatory measures. Every time we add more safety features to a car, whether for drivers or those the car might collide with, they get bigger and more expensive.

I see huge size as a red herring. All of his problems have existed for 100 years, and will continue to exist for 100 more.

Problem 1: endangers others on the street

Problem 2: worsens climate change

Problem 3: shreds tires

Problem 4: destroys roadways

Problem 5: makes cars expensive

People just absolutely love buying huge cars though.

Not much to do about it unless the government is willing to get involved (and it doesn't seem like they will, at least in the US).

There's a lot of low density population in our country, and it really adds up to a lot of people given just how much land we have. One person in five lives in rural America. For a lot of people living among poor infrastructure, these kinds of cars are the most practical available for the lives they lead.

I'm not a huge car apologist, but I believe (especially on HN) there is a bias towards seeing the problem only through the lens of urban or suburban life. Meaningful solutions won't occur by leaving rural America behind or minimizing their issues.

In Turkiye stupid tax rules make pickup trucks (e.g. Toyota Hilux) cheaper than more efficient 2 row SUVs (e.g. Toyota RAV4).

I find it interesting how cars and athletic shoes have both enlarged.

Modern SUVs have become oversized and even look like the oversized basketball shoes.