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I'm very happy with my Glove80. I started with a prototype 3D printed model last year: the creators are friends of mine, and I wrote the LED status display code for them. I also dropped the prototype down a flight of concrete stairs (sorry! It still works though).

I now have a production model with the white clicky keyswitches. Ultra happy with it. I've been using Kinesis Advantage2s for a shade over two decades - the same model DanielDK used for a long time. The Glove80 is simply better. I prefer the clicky keyswitches. Ergonomics are great. It's really repairable - everything is held together with screws (spare parts for my Advantage2s are not available, and the function keys are not repairable). Open firmware so you can make it do wacky stuff if the need arises. Small and light enough for travel - I should get a proper case but it's survived a fair few trips stuffed into my backpack.

Yeah, adaptation to new keyboard layouts is hard. I used a layout that mimicked my old Advantage2 - so I'd paid the cost to learn columnar already. I found the default Glove80 layout was better, but switching meant a month of confusing Ctrl and Shift. All better now!

As a general question to anybody that used the Kinesis Advantage and switched to the Glove80: how's the thumb cluster?

The double-length keys for bk/delete/enter/space allows a lot of vertical travel freedom on the hand. Instead of flexing the fingers I can just move the whole hand down and hit the lower row _very_ comfortably while not having to worry about the thumb at all.

I've mocked a few pieces of paper to advantage with the shape of the glove80 cluster and I really can't decide if that's good or bad. While the inner thumb keys of the advantage are pretty far from the key wells, the most important modifiers are all closer compared to the glove80.

Trying it on the mockup, the glove80 cluster placement forces my hand on a higher position and requires the thumb to stretch more.

I've been looking at the advantage 360 and I don't like the complete removal of the Fn row, while at the same time I also hate the old Fn keys on the advantage. The glove80 layout is really nice, but I find the thumb cluster of the advantage to be pretty darn good.

You're using silent clicky switches? What's the activation force? (I have an Ergodox EZ and love it)
I had severe problems with RSI many years ago, to the point where I thought I had to give up programming alltogether. I also got an ergonomic keyboard, which helped, and an argonomic pen-like mouse. However, I would say that even more important in getting rid of my problems was the use of a break program. It reminds me to take regular breaks, and prompts me to to stretches throuhgout the day. The combination of these things meant that I recovered completely from my problems.

More info here: https://henrikwarne.com/2012/02/18/how-i-beat-rsi/

As someone who sits in front of computers way above the average and never had any issues with eyes or hands (while others my age had issues there) I think this is the key:

Try to get into the habit to stretch your wrists/fingers when you are not using them and try to do the same thing with your eyes (eyes are muscles too), by e.g. focusing onto something far away, rolling your eyes, etc.

If you are of the type that gets lost in work some reminder can help, but I think it is better to form habits of using thinking breaks to do the stretching. Nobody types regularily for 3 hours straight without interrupting to think at least for a bit once every few minutes. If you use these breaks to stretch, you will be fine.

Ultimately a person with good habits will be able to work healthy with seemingly unergonomic setups, while a person with bad habits will be able to use even the most ergonomic setup in unhealthy ways.

Everybody knows that collegue who has that incredibly expensive ergonomic chair and sits on it like a bored prototypical teenager. Habits will always trump tools, unless your tools are so incredibly bad, it will be self evident that they are.

When I (or to be more precise, when a colleague I was trying to pair program with) used them, these programs infuriated me to no end. Just when I was on to something, I got smacked in the face with a modal dialog.

Perhaps things have improved over the years, but I could not imagine a user interface that would cater to both my physical and mental well-being.

It's also my experience that break reminders prevent wrist pain. For macOS, I recommend Time Out. Actively maintained, with all the options you'd want.

https://dejal.com/timeout/

Apparently I just don't work very hard and take lots of breaks all the time without an app needing to remind me.

Also, my colleagues find it very annoying when I stand up and start pacing around when I am thinking something through.

I'm a huge fan of the Goldtouch V1 keyboard. I have been using it along with their fantastic pads my entire career. I have accumulated a surplus of these keyboards as I intend to use them until I'm unable to type.

I discovered them when I started my first job at HP-UX in Cupertino, CA and a bunch of people there were using them.

I also switched to Dvorak a few years before than.

I don't like their V2 offering, as an emacs user the caps lock key is gimped and I don't need the windows key near the ctrl / alt keys.

How much do you type a day to have problems? I have never felt limited by my typing speed or comfort during my career, but I understand that different people might have different workflows.

For me it’s thinking, writing a few lines and start thinking again.

One programmer guy I know who had RSI problems was actually writing way too much and overly verbose code and also literally banged on the keys instead of pressing them.

The pen-like mouse is intriguing.
I don't understand the curved keyboard wells as present on the Glove80 and Kinesis Advantage keyboards. For most keys on a flat keyboard I type not by bending the finger joints and then punching the keys with the tips of my fingers by straightening my fingers. Instead, I press the keys by largely swinging the whole finger up and down and typing with the pads on the distal phalanx of the fingers.

This is hard to explain but my experience with my Kinesis Advantage is that the keys above the home row and especially the function keys (really just function buttons) are too high and are oriented with the faces of these keys too angled towards my hands (i.e. the normal vector from the top of the keycaps are angled at perhaps 45 degrees from vertical). So on an "ordinary" keyboard, like a laptop keyboard, the surface of the keycaps are roughly parallel to the surface of the laptop keyboard. On such an ordinary keyboard it is quite easy to press the number keys and function keys without a lot of finger flexing, while on the Kinesis Advantage I feel like I am curling my fingers then lifting my whole hand and then straightening my fingers to kind of punch the keys like one would press a button mounted on a wall. (Does this elaborate explanation even make sense or am I just being picky?)

I greatly prefer typing on the Kinesis Gaming Keyboard. These feel better than using welled keyboards to me.

I haven't been following ergonomic keyboards for awhile, but went pretty deep a few years ago back when the Dactyl Manuform and Kinesis were the only names in town.

So seeing the Glove80, I was excited to see a new "mass-manufactured" entrant in the space, since dactyl manuforms have to be 3d-printed and handwired, thus meaning they're hard to come by and quite expensive.

The glove80 looks interesting, however at $400 it's not much cheaper than handmade dactyls (https://bastardkb.com/product/scylla-prebuilt-preorder-2/). So if I were purchasing another one, I'd probably still go for a dactyl, as there's more community history/support, and hand-built build quality might be higher.

If an injection molded + flexible PCB mass manufacturer for these curved keywell ergonomic keyboards could release something for around $200, then the space might really heat up!

I love my glove80. Went from 110 WPM to about 10 the first day, practiced a few hours and got to ~60 in a day or two. After a week or two I could comfortably program with it without feeling slowed down.

I have no more pain in my left arm after a work day, and I feel like it’s easier to sit with a proper posture.

I wonder if all those "ergonomic" designs really aim at the right corner of the solution space. What about targetted exercise of involved muscle groups and regular breaks to stretch and relax the tendons/joints/muscles/...?

I mean, with our societies sedentary life style, surely exacerbated by programmers sitting for 10+ hours a day, I'm a bit doubtful that moving even less is the answer. What about doing a few simple exercises regularly in breaks and evaluate? Obviously the standard Apple keyboard has terrible ergonomics, but something slightly more reasonable could already do the trick..

I use a Glove80 keyboard, and even after 4 months I'm not back to my normal typing speed! This has cost me a fair bit of productivity, and was stressful at times. Almost feeling like I'd suffered a bit of brain damage, where I could picture what I wanted to do, but be unable to type it out.

Having the modifier keys in the thumb cluster feels a lot less awkward than using my left-hand little finger at odd angles. And I like the fit and finish and customisation.

Overall though, I think I would have been better served by a regular qwerty, not columnar, split keyboard. Maybe my middleaged brain ain't plastic enough any more.

<small>Plus I think the benefits of columnar are oversold. If I naturally curl my fingers in and out, they kinda fan in and out, rather move in parallel straight lines. And the right hand side of a regular keyboard matches that movement pretty well. The left hand side is backwards of course.

I highly recommend low profile switches for those who haven't tried them. They weren't really available in many models until recently and they're a big step up from standard switches if you're more used to laptops.
I appreciate the nerdy customization of this in a way, but every time an ergo keyboard comes to the front page I'm a little disappointed that it's way too niche, and in this case also seemingly a bit unwieldy and stationary.

I've really come to love the now discontinued Sculpt series, despite their flaws, and wish someone would just come along and produce that again with some minor iterations; fix the dongle problems, increase durability, sell it as just the keyboard, and maybe allow it to fold in half for increased portability. I'm glad there are tweakable keyboards, but I never want to do that, I just want speed, confort, versatility, familiarity, and minimal size. It would be neat to order one with custom superficial elements though. I know the Sculpt isn't loved by everyone, and maybe it's my narrow shoulders, long arms, short torso, and alien-like fingers that make it my favorite, but damn I like it. A mac version would also be cool, but I get by.

I use it at home, and when I'm working at a cafe for variety, I can just toss it in my backpack along with the dongle (that frustratingly doesn't have a dedicated compartment in the idiotic mouse+keyboard package I'm forced to buy it in) and then use it on my lap so I can deal with the odd chair to table height ratios of coffee shops.

I’ve haven’t tried the glove80 but suspect I won’t like it because it doesn’t do QWERTY and the columnar layout may not work for me.

However over the years I’ve purchased many ergo kbs: ergo dox, kinesis and variants, and I just could not get into any of those.

Until I got the UHK (Ultimate Hacking Keyboard) , and I absolutely love it. It retains the QWERTY + regular (staggered?) layout, has split/angled halves, and thumb clusters, all of which can be programmed with an excellent software.

I've really been liking my Glove80.

I had an Ergodox before and I like finally having function rows back, and the thumb cluster on this is at a nicer angle than both the Ergodox and Moonlander.

The wells are pretty easy to get used to and in general I think it’s just a really well made product.

I was looking forward to the Kinesis Advantage360 Pro, since it solves some of the issues with the Advantage2. It supports three different tenting angles and is a truly split keyboard. However, the Advantage360 Pro was quite a disappointment. The keyboard, which is a hefty 650 Euro, was plagued with Bluetooth issues, the Gateron Brown switches were tiring for me, and Kinesis didn’t improve the thumb cluster. I switched back to my Advantage2 after a while and the 360 Pro was collecting dust.

I got a Kinesis Advantage 360 through Upgrade Keyboards: https://upgradekeyboards.com/collections/kinesis-advantage36... with Box White switches, and it's been great. Expensive, yes, but great. I got the wired version for the usual reasons ("he who knows wireless, chooses wired"). YMMV. I also like the brown switches but like speed switches or box whites better.

I wish I had seen this earlier. Probably a few hours before seeing this on HN I bought a Kinesis Advantage 360 from an EU retailer for nearly 700 euros (I got the palm/wrist rests).

And I am still waiting on a Moonlander to try out as well but DHL customs is being difficult.

I really do think this keyboard is interesting. My only concern is why not use the more mainstream cherry mx mechanism?

Can someone who owns a Glove80 do a sound demonstration video please? Ive looked on youtube and there is not much out there. One of the main reasons I couldn’t get adjusted to using the Ergodox EZ was due to how it sounds.
I was using the Kinesis Advantage 2 (KA2) for the longest while 8+ years now, and then recently upgraded to the Kinesis Advantage 360 and the KA2 was still hands down the best keyboard that I used. I still switch between the KA2 and KA360 but the KA360 is as mentioned plagued with so many issues, from the bluetooth connection issues all the way to setting the keymap using the ZMK software. I would still recommend the KA2 for most users and also the best bang for the buck if you can get one used or refurbished. The split also doesn't make as big of a difference as it seemed at least from my proportions.
It looks neat, though it always seems strange to me when an ergonomic setup involves picking up one of your hands and moving it to the side often to use a separate mouse or keyboard. Is there not a better place to put it, integrated or slightly above or in the middle etc, to avoid having to change hand position all the time?
This looked so good until I saw it requires switches to be soldered (by them or you). Hot-swappable switches is a must for me, specially at this price point. I guess my ergodox will have to last a bit longer until a proper replacement is found.
There are a lot of touted ergo features: tenting, concave keywell, l/r split, ortho columns, thumb cluster. Of these, the most important IME is the thumb cluster -- giving more work to your thumbs and taking load off your pinkies.

This led me to HHKB JP layout for 80/20 ergo benefit without having to carry two unwieldy halves of a keyboard when I want portability. Still use Kinesis Advantage 2 at home, but nothing beats the HHKB JP when traveling.

I bought moonlander some time ago and found the learning process far too frustrating. What's more, I noticed that the more I switched to the new layout, the more I was struggling with more classic ones (primarily laptops and my trusty MS NEK 4000). That was enough for me to shelve the moonlander for now.

How long it takes to fully and comfortably switch, including all the punctuation characters? Did you also struggle with other keyboards?

I know I need one. I have an Alice layout keyboard (think Microsoft ergonomic keyboard) and it helps but I know a fully ergonomic keyboard that I can tent is in my future eventually.

Anyone have tips on getting up to speed with a new keyboard? My productivity drops dramatically every time I’ve tried it. Last time with a Kinesis FreeStyle and I just wasn’t adjusting fast enough.

I’ll take tips on how to adopt an ergonomic mouse too

I love my Glove80 with Pro Reds at 35 grams. 14 years on Kinesis Advantage and not looking back.

I gave up on ordering KA360 when I heard from several people that even the wired version was as plagued with issues as the Bluetooth one without in house expertise to resolve it, reliant on contractors.

Splitting the arrow keys across each hand is a form of mental abuse I wouldn't wish on anyone.
I use Kinesis Advantage 2 for work, but I don't use it to play video games. First, it's kind of expensive, and games wear the keyboard very quickly, second: game designers assume a more conventional keyboard layout, so, for example, small function keys are a non-starter for a lot of games. Also, games assume that the player should be able to press keys 6-0 with the same hand they press 1-5 (while holding the mouse in the other hand) -- this doesn't work well with split keyboards.

I would expect the same to be true, more or less for this keyboard. With the exception of function keys being bigger. On the other hand, I'm not sure I'd want function keys to not be very easily distinguishable from the rest. At least, in the case of Kinesis, some of them control keyboard's own macros / remapping. Accidentally hitting those might result in an hour long break trying to reprogram the keyboard to do what it used to do before you fat-fingered it to do something stupid.

Happy with mine with the 35g pro reds, but the real benefit is just being programmable. It has more keys than I need coming from a ferris, but the extra thumb keys give more options for layers. Also the physical number keys make taking down phone numbers while on the phone easier. ZMK can also be built in a github action which makes tweaking the layout easier. Would recommend.
I am in my late thirties and have been developing arthritis in my hands for almost ten years now. I have tried a lot of different ergonomic keyboards including the aforementioned Kinesis Advantage. I was extra hopeful for it, but even after getting through the rather intensive learning process I didn’t find it helped. If anything I think aggravated the problem.

I found myself having to repeatedly bend and unbend my individual fingers to reach keys. This action is particularly painful for me. On a standard keyboard I can maintain roughly continuous finger curl and move my entire arm at the shoulders only slightly extending the finger I wish to use.

I remain largely unconvinced of the benefits of welled keyboards, since they do seem to increase overall wear on individual fingers.

The solution I found that has actually helped the most is simply using a keyboard with the lowest pressure mushiest rubber domes. For me that has been a keyboard I already owned, a Sun Type 7

I’m probably going to get the Glove80 depending on if I like the switches more, but I really wish that there was one ergonomic keyboard that had 2.5ghz wireless connectivity instead of Bluetooth. I actually use these keyboards for gaming, and adding 10ms of latency is fine for typing but absolutely unsuitable, so I will have to keep it wired
The large thumb keys of the Kinesis Advantage Keyboards (writing on one of them) can be pressed without moving the hands at all, because of their "loose fit". They probably work very well for a large range of hands sizes. I've programmed my layout so that the thumb keys are (from left to right) mod1, ctrl, return, space. The right ones with mod1 delete and backspace. On the home row (with mod1) arrow keys, alt, shift, ... . So the large thumb keys are absolute essential in my layout. And 4 of them are enough due to using one of them as mod1. I don't use the regular sized keys in the cluster at all.

I can't imaging going back to a none curved, none orthogonal keyboard.

Anyway, the Glove80 is still really interesting, esp. the various switches and the more affordable price.

Does anyone know a EU reseller?

I would like to buy one, but I would like to have the option to send it back if I don't like it.

These types of design look awesome, keyboard should be split and it should reflect the physical difference in finger length etc, the only thing missing is one (or two?) tracking points for mouse movements without moving your hand, are there keyboards like that?
I use the Moonlander with a layout that doesn't deviate much from the standard Mac keyboard. Even though I sacrifice a little bit of single keypress magics that I can do on my Moonlander, it enables me to switch more easily to my laptop keyboard on the go.
Got excited about the function keys but unfortunately the Glove80 isn't a replacement for my Kinesis Advantage. I really dislike a battery powered keyboard, plugging in a cable into my laptop in the morning is something that never bothered me. However, having a failing keyboard/mouse in the middle of some work really annoys me. Maybe I am wrong but aren't two movable parts a bit annoying as well? My keyboard gets moved on my desk quite a bit and repositioning two moving parts sounds quite tedious...
Does anyone know where I can get a switch tester from that includes all these keys?

I'm in Germany. I found some but they are not for the low profile ones. I found this: https://keycapsss.com/switchestester/switch-tester/174/kailh... but it's sold out.

I bought a Typematrix 2030 since I can bring it wherever i go. It is small enough to sit on top of a macbook keyboard and the ortholinear layout helped my RSI
I used an split ergo keyboard once, felt like I was playing a guitar, very distracting/awkward. for me taking short breaks works as remedy.
I like but don't love my Glove80. The build quality just feels a little cheap given how decidedly not cheap the price tag is. And the thumb clusters are quite pointy. I do like how the key well shape makes it easy to reach an extra row of keys; I have all my parens and braces below the zxcvb row, where on an ordinary keyboard all the modifiers would be.
I’m still hoping to see keyboard designs that adjust for the size of the user’s hand and length of their individual fingers.

Example: As noted in the post, some people have a longer middle finger while some have a longer ring finger. The “wingspan” can also vary wildly especially with the wide varieties of height.

I'd love to try all those ergonomic keyboards, but the most ergonomic thing for me still is a Thinkpad-style trackpoint.
If you have arthritis in your base of thumb joints, keyboards with thumb clusters may not be a good fit for you. I can use these types of keyboards for a day or two, then the thumb pain is too much.

I have the same issue with game controllers, so that may be a good indicator of problems with this type of keyboard.

Looks like it could be great for gaming.
Reminder that if you have any sort of finger or wrist pain, arthritis, RSI, etc the simplest fix you can make is to switch to a better keyboard layout like Dvorak. QWERTY was made to be unergonomic by design and with full intent of making your fingers travel further to type out common words to avoid adjacent keys from sticking if struck in close temporal proximity due to manufacturing limitations of the time.

I switch to Dvorak twenty years ago because I wrongly believed it would make me more productive (as if programming is limited by how fast you can type!) but stayed for the ergonomics. I should, by all rights, have terrible RSI due to how I abused my poor upper extremities in my youth but through the mercy of the lord and thanks to a miserable month or so of pecking at letters like a computer illiterate individual until I learned where the (unlabeled) Dvorak keys were, I have no real issues. On days where arthritis kicks in, typing isn’t an undue discomfort thanks to the sane layout of the keys.