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> The entire Palestinian war doctrine is built around attacking Israel ...

Let me correct that for you - The entire Palestinian resistance is built around the idea of fighting a foreign occupation of their land. Israel is a coloniser state, and the Palestinians are justified in fighting them, even violently, for their land and existence as many other colonial countries have in the past against their oppressors. The denial that some Israelis have about this is the height of political stupidity.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

The problem with Israel is not PLA or Hamas, but the the right-wing religious fundamentalist Israeli-Jews that have captured power in Israel. Right-wing religious fundamentalists around the world thrive by creating a climate of fear and hate. Unless Israeli Jews and Palestinian muslims hate each other, they cannot be in power. And if you look at the history of the Israeli religious fundamentalist Jews, you will find that they have assassinated their own people, Palestinian politicians and ven foreign diplomats and leaders, to ensure that there is no peace and a climate of fear and hatred flourishes.

Why do you think Netanyahu and his predecessor formulated the policy of supporting and financing Hamas when the PLA started exploring diplomatic and non-violent means of peace, and gaining international support? The reality was that that these religious fundamentalist Israeli politicians need some religious fundamentalist violent Palestinian faction to brainwash and radicalise their followers to retain power. So they deliberately create conflict. The Likud party that Netanyahu now heads, was found by religious fundamentalists in Israel who were a jewish terrorist organisation that took please in killing and slaughtering Palestinina men, women and children. Albert Einstein once warned the Israel polity about the dangers of such people capturing power in Israel because of the atrocity them committed against Palestinians in the name of Israel.

It is not a co-incidence that Netanyahu and his other religious fundamentalist buddies allowed Hamas to attack Israel, when he and the right- in Israel are in a very politically precarious situation. The current war allows them to create hatred among the new generation of Israelis and Palestinians, so that they can cling on to power.

2 comments

And what should the 12 million people living there now do?

Let us know how you'll handle them.

> And what should the 12 million people living there now do?

Accept the idea of a single state where Palestinians and Israelis have true equal rights and live together as the best solution. The opponents to this are the religious fundamentalists on both sides, especially the Israeli-right. Or, alternatively, accept the two-state solution by creating a State for Palestinians.

Would Hamas dissolve? Their charter specifies that their goal is to kill all Jews. What happens after they are citizens?

The two state solution was offered repeatedly. Israel isn't in charge of that. Hamas refused every time. So, I support you there, but it's not up to the 12 million living there. It's up to the handful of Hamas psychos holding Gaza hostage.

> Would Hamas dissolve? Their charter specifies that their goal is to kill all Jews. What happens after they are citizens?

The same thing that happened to jewish terrorist organisations like the Ḥerut (“Freedom”) Party (who, like Hamas used to rape and slaughter woman and children) - their leader Menachem Begin founded the Likud party (which toned down its terrorist roots and became a right-wing fascist political party). PLA too has toned down. Hamas too can. Note that Hamas was democratically elected but was never allowed to exercise its democratic right to govern because Israel and the US didn't like it, and forced a civil war on Palestinians by urging the PLA to attack it, while using their propaganda machinery to demonise Hamas. The Israeli-right (and US) never wanted democratic organisations in Palestine to flourish because it makes it harder to demonise them and deny them their right, and would lead to a peaceful resolution between Palestinians and Israelis that they do not want.

> The two state solution was offered repeatedly. Israel isn't in charge of that. Hamas refused every time.

The Israeli-right doesn't want peace. It desires all the land of the Palestinians for the State of Israel. If you look at Israeli history, you will find that it is Israeli-religious fundamentalists who have always sabotaged the peace talks, while using the settlers to attack Palestinians and occupy more and more of their land. They killed their own Prime Minister, Yitzhak Rabin (The assassination of Yitzhak Rabin: ‘He never knew it was one of his people who shot him in the back’ - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/31/assassination-... ) as he was working for a peaceful settlement with Palestinians. They succeeded in sabotaging the peace process. Netanyahu's mentor, Ariel Sharon later gave the order for assassinating PLA's Yasser Arafat (Yasser Arafat: The Assassination - https://www.palestinechronicle.com/yasser-arafat-the-assassi... ), to create anger and hate amongst the Palestinians and sabotage the peace process. They succeeded. Hamas too has many times offered to negotiate peace with Israel, but each time they were rebuffed by Israelis (Israel Rejected Peace with Hamas on Five Occasions* - https://inkstickmedia.com/israel-rejected-peace-with-hamas-o... ). Why do you think Netanyahu continued to support and finance Hamas? (Why Israel Created Hamas - https://swprs.org/why-israel-created-hamas/ ). Even recently, Netanyahu has bluntly said he will never accept the two-state solution (Israel’s embattled leader has long opposed the emergence of an independent Palestine. - https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/01/22/netanyahu-bi... ) and has instead used the recent tragedy to do the same thing the right-wing religious fundamentalists in Israel have always done - kill Palestines brazenly and seize their land in both Gaza and West Bank (Israel unveils big West Bank land seizure as Blinken visits - https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2024/03/israel-unveils-... ).

Israel's greatest enemy are their religious fundamentalists in power. They need to get rid of them, starting with Netanyahu, if they want lasting peace.

>The Israeli-right doesn't want peace.

That's unsubstantiated, and besides the point. PLO and Hamas have still refused any and all two state options, including a 98% land swap offered with Bill Clinton at the Camp David summit.

The two state solution isn't on the table no matter what anyone other than Palestinian leaders say, so we can ignore that part of your argument. It doesn't serve as constructive criticism of Israel. Maybe of Arafat specifically, if you're intending to criticize.

Look at Israel's history and you will find that religious fundamentalist Israeli Jews have always been at forefront in sabotaging all efforts at peace and in fostering violence whenever they can because it benefits their politics. (I've already cited many examples). The slogan "from the river to the sea" was originally the genocidal slogan coined by the fascist Likud party, by Netanyahu, in 1977 to highlight their policy of subjugating all Palestinians and occupying their land for the State of Israel (The controversial phrase “from the river to sea,” explained - https://www.vox.com/world-politics/23972967/river-to-sea-pal...). (And now the same religious fundamentalist Israelis cry crocodile tears about "anti-semitism" because some muslim fundamentalists and secular pro-Palestinians have usurped the slogan for their own cause).

As long as these religious fundamentalists thrive in Israel, Israel is doomed to be a country to live in hatred and anger.

And, if you support Israel, it should worry you. I am an indian who had great sympathy and respect for Jews, and later Israeli leaders. Today, thanks to Netanyahu and his vulgar war to just cling on to power, I am a pro-palestinian now. It is important for people like you to understand this because while in the short-term you think that Israel is "winning" the war by "defending" itself by killing 30,000+ Palestinians, later on, you are going to wonder why the rest of the world don't "like you". Netanyahu and his other religious fundamentalist jews will use identity politics and try to convince you its because you are a jew, and the world hates Jew. No. If people look down on Israelis today and tomorrow, it will only be because you were cowards to not stand up to your genocidal leaders, and even supported them, like the Nazis cheered on Hitler.

(Now, Netanyahu has deliberately attacked and provoked Iran too because he knows Israelis are losing patience with his promises to bring back the hostages - most of whom the IDF has already killed with their bombing of Gaza. So expanding the conflict to war with another foreign state, by provoking Iran, is his only way to further distract the public, foster even more hate between jews and muslims and cling on to power.)

>Israeli Jews have always been at forefront in sabotaging all efforts at peace

I'm not seeing that. I'm seeing that they offered a 98% land swap that is extremely contrary to your claim. (That's not the only time Israel agreed to a two state solution, either.)

Let's look at your other argument.

>because some muslim fundamentalists and secular pro-Palestinians have usurped the slogan for their own cause

"From the river to the sea" is in the Gaza charter. If it's Netanyahu's slogan then we must also conclude that it's so inspirational to Gaza's government that they wanted to include it in their constitution. That doesn't sound like "some." That sounds like the government of Gaza, regardless of how much citizen support, is intent on conquest and extermination.

You're also acting like "from the river to the sea" is bad for Israel to say. Those are Israel's borders. Any less than that means they need to evacuate somewhere. India isn't offering to accept 12 million Israelis for immigration. Right? If they are, it would be easier to accept 2 million Gazans.

Of course that's what Gaza included in the charter. They want Israel erased. They want the Jews dead. That's also in their charter. It's very specific. They didn't mince words there. It says the rocks will divulge that Jews are hiding behind them so that they can be killed. I encourage you to read it.

Israel, however, has no intention of conquering Gaza. It withdrew completely from Gaza, nearly 20 years ago. Gaza invaded Israel. Not the other way around. They are now occupying Gaza as a response. But they were not occupying Gaza before October.

If you are going to bring up the import restrictions, you should criticize Egypt too. They are also on that front. Why pick on Israel? Egypt is the bigger army.

>you were cowards to not stand up to your genocidal leaders

I don't have a horse in the race, so "you" isn't really appropriate. But this is exactly what people are thinking about Gaza, that they are cowards not to stand up to their genocidal government that beheads children and films it.

Regardless, you still haven't given a single viable solution.

It looks to me like Israel has no choice, as you've proven here. You're criticizing a victim forced to act in a way no one likes. Gazas' goal is to make you not like Israel by forcing it to act. They won you over with baby beheading and terror apparently.

Do you feel it's okay for Gaza to invade Israel?

Would it be okay for Pakistan to invade India?

What about if Pakistan's founding documents direct all Pakistanis that all Indians must die? Is that acceptable?

Why should that be acceptable to anyone?

There are some problems and differences that you're ignoring.

The goal of previous terror groups wasn't extermination. In fact their goals were largely in alignment with Western morality. Targets included key infrastructure, not specifically civilians. This is similar to Western military efforts.

The US hasn't needed to do much propaganda, Hamas has made themselves intolerable in Western society by beheading children, recording it, and disseminating it, among other similar media interaction. Their goal is to alienate Islam in order to preserve it in the face of westernization. They don't want Palestinians to be accepted in Western society.

Given the historical dissimilarity, why would any Western government believe that Hamas would suddenly gain Western idealism within the confines of a Western democracy?

I don't see any reason that we should, especially when relying on the historical accounts you've provided.

Sounds like you’re endorsing violence, just upset that your side is losing.

You think Israel is winning? It's hate that has won and it will consume the Israelis soon. Unlike you however, I feel sorry for the Israelis too who will be harmed because of Netanyahu and his ilk - hopefully Israelis will realise this sooner and get rid of these selfish religious fundamentalists politicians.

Hopefully Gazans will too?

Most people find genocide upsetting. This isn't a video game. Tens of thousands of lives are being destroyed here.

Whats the difference between “war” and “genocide”?

The starvation part and the "ehhhhh 100:1 civilian:combatant is fine" part.

Btw the person you're replying to goes a bit farther than is appropriate, I apologize

In what insane world do you have to feed enemy population?

Ah.

EDIT: I shouldn't have been so terse.

First off, the fact you wrote that unironically and with such surety and verve means this is, at the very least, if you're in a place where your interlocution hurts Israel.

There's no way to explain this, even at length, in a way that's convincing. It's something that settles in over weeks, at best.

I'm intimately familiar with the branching arguments from here: ex. Hamas is stealing the aid, it's not Israel's job to make sure aid gets in, of course aid has to be screened, UNWRA radicalized palestine so UN isn't a reliable aide distribution partner, etc.

I had to make a bit of a journey myself on this topic: I spent Oct/Nov/Dec talking about Gaza Health Ministry is the last place I'd go to for death totals, etc. etc.

At some point once things pile up, and up, and up, it crosses a critical line where you can see in reality that our jaundiced view from thousands of miles away is a map, not the territory. It's a list of excuses used to avoid taking the world's easiest layup ("we are defeating the terrorists and flooding the zone with cookies and cakes for the civvies"), and that layup has been avoided for 6 months, there's been plenty of time to take action to avoid a visible outcome, and that outcome's visibility may have just vanished into the wind as another complaint from uninformed antisemites.

Let's say that's not Israel's problem and it's being unfairly treated by a PR campaign by radicals who contain antisemites.

Then either A) world government's are too scared of their population to admit Israel is doing just fine or B) maybe all that stacked up stuff is a list of excuses to not have to take action to treat Palestineans like people.

You finally admit that you see the Palestinian people as the enemy.