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I think Baker would like - no, love - HN!

Right now an essay on him is sharing the front page with 2-axis light positioners (whatever the heck those are), cow magnets, secrets rooms in train stations, and a CLI switch to DOS that printed “I love sex” continually on the screen. So meta, you can’t make this up. This is why HN is so unique among all other places I frequent(ed) and why I love it.

Maybe he is a HN lurker.

The Fermata is his only book I’ve read, it was very interesting. You can see that has put a lot of thought into the idea of what you can do if you can stop time for everyone else.

I suspect you’re right.

The Mezzanine and Human Smoke were two of my most impactful reading experiences. Mutually, totally orthogonal and yet both speak to the unbelievable cardinality of complexity in real life

his interview on otherppl is good too: https://open.spotify.com/episode/3Ipny0XxrVKKwj4BKbTpIp?si=9...

i love how his speaking style in that interview is like his stories, meandering tangents and fascinating

If you don’t like Spotify: https://www.otherppl.com/
thanks for doing the hard work for everybody :p
As someone that has started to draw from scratch five months ago, I was disappointed by this book. It was basically not much more than a show and tell of pictures he mostly traced of photos and then shaded in pencil in or painted, and a naming of tutorials he watched and classes attended. I would have hoped for something a little less prosaic. There is a lot to talk about regarding the magic of learning to draw (including the fact that anyone can do it, and ruminations on the basic division between observational atelier style drawing vs constructive drawing), and the author completely avoids the thing that is the most brain expanding and thrilling part of drawing which is learning to draw from imagination rather than copying or tracing photos. This is 100% a learnable skill, and it is very addictive when you first start to see things on paper that you had in your head.
> draw from imagination rather than copying or tracing photos

Well, I'd argue that the more important skill from a technical perspective is in between that-- life drawing. Being able to translate 3d scenes into a 2d image is the primary technical drawing skill emphasized in art school drawing classes, and for good reason: it forces you to reason about physical space and the structure of objects in ways that neither drawing from imagination nor drawing from a photo reference does. Using a photo reference for drawing in art school is usually disallowed because you simply don't build up that skill, and drawing from imagination is generally taught in classes like Character Design and Illustration after students have learned the fundamentals because there are tons of intellectual considerations there that don't have a lot to do with making marks and reasoning about space that warrant their own subjects. Among the long-time artists I know that started drawing from imagination exclusively, I don't know a single one that doesn't lament not focusing on the comparatively dry life drawing earlier in their practice.

Doing the traditional foundational things like pencil line drawing accurate complex still life can be really frustrating, as can figure drawing, though I found it a lot more rewarding. But if you're looking to develop the best possible artistic eye, there is absolutely no substitute.

I agree that life drawing is of tremendous importance, but your characterization here disagrees with my experience:

> [life drawing] forces you to reason about physical space and the structure of objects in ways that neither drawing from imagination nor drawing from a photo reference does.

Now this may be because I am, at best, an intermediate artist, but in my experience, beginner drawing courses (rightly) focus on unlearning the natural tendency towards "symbol drawing". A bunch of beginner drawing exercises like (a) copying Picasso's Stravinsky portrait upside down, (b) overlaying a picture with a grid to copy it, (c) life drawing with various physical aids (holding out a pencil to "visually measure", drawing a scene visible through a cardboard frame) are all focused on learning to draw what you "really see" instead of what you think you see.

To me, this early learning process involves learning _not_ to reason about what you see, but to instead simply copy what's in your "visual field". Instead of "oh, a nose is sort of a pyramid shape, so it should look like this", it's, "I see a darker value in that spot" (it just so happens to be the shadow cast under the nose, but you don't even need to recognize that). In my own drawing journey, I actually think my life drawing started getting much better once I started learning to draw from imagination, because the latter _does_ require that level of understanding - using perspective, simplifying forms into primitive shapes, types of shadows, planning where the darkest and lightest values in the image will be, and so on. In particular, since practicing illustration, I'm much more capable of sketching things that aren't posing, like the geese permanently milling around in front of my house - I can quickly copy a silhouette, and then use my knowledge to fill out what it should look like. I didn't really learn to do that in all my life drawing classes, because I could just fall back on what I was seeing.

I'm not an art educator, but I am a fairly recent graduate from art school, and am familiar with the curricula of other art programs-- and that's the perspective that I'm speaking from. YMMV of course. Reasoning about objects symbolically is very different than reasoning about the way real world space and forms present themselves in 2d. The "copy the portrait upside down" type of exercises are great for casual self-paced learners: they help break naive habits, get people excited because they see the composition and intent that other people created coming out in their work, there's built-in guard rails to make sure they don't stray too far, and the references are commonly available and therefore easy to get crit on online, or just evaluate it yourself... but I think they take up a lot of time for what you get out of them, and it's really easy for people to plateau taking that approach.

I also went to culinary school some time ago and worked as a chef-- there's a similar split in culinary art. If someone told me they were sick of making boring weeknight dinners, then sure, finding and following fun recipes and maybe doing some creative experimentation is a good place to start, and surely some people that start that way end up really learning how to cook eventually. Exposure to variety is also helpful in developing aesthetic sophistication. But without deliberate guidance towards theory-focused information, most hit a hard plateau with that approach, and there's a good chance they'll stay there. If they'd read a beginner-friendly technique-focused book like Michael Ruhlman's "Ratio" instead of trawling recipe sites for aspirational dinners, they might have seen less improvement in the quality of their dinners for a week, but in a few weeks they'd be miles beyond the first cargo-culting cook because rather than knowing a handful of recipes that work, they'd know how they worked.

If someone said they were looking to get into art, generally, then there's no way I'd recommend even touching still life for a while. If they're like "I want to learn oil painting on canvas" then I absolutely would.

P.S.

> Now this may be because I am, at best, an intermediate artist

So you're probably a pretty competent artist. ;-) Genuinely mediocre artists talk about their capability like they're Van Eyck.

Also an art school survivor, and I strongly agree with what you wrote. Moreover I think it applies to everything, including writing code and writing music: Theory is much more important than technical skill. Technical skill follows from practicing and trying to execute theories as you understand them, even if you're practicing them badly at first. Understanding how to work with space two-dimensionally can't be done by grid copying; understanding how spices interact can't be done by following recipes. You have to start with a concept, taste the product, and adjust through trial and error until you understand the relationships.

It's not just unlearning symbolic representation (learning to see light and color rather than outlines of shapes, for instance). That can be unlearned quickly. It's learning how the eye actually perceives light and color in theory and then testing and re-testing your assumptions.

Yes, yes, yes, all of that. As an aside, I really wish the tech crowd at large understood that physically crafting the end product is neither the hardest nor the most important part in the creative process. I think that knowledge being more widespread would expose many of the flaws in the idea that a handful of SV companies are a few exaflops away from saving humanity from deliberate creativity.
Interesting! A couple of years ago, I attempted to begin "learning to draw well" (technique focus). I did the first couple of lessons on the Watts Atelier online course and attended several life drawing sittings. It didn't stick, though! Do you have any recommendations for the initial phases of "learning to draw well"? I think I focused too much on rigor, too soon, and didn't give myself enough chances to sink my teeth into it with initial easy wins.
Have you seen "draw a box"? It might be for you.
Respectfully, if one is put off by focusing too much on rigor initially then I think drawabox is the exact opposite of what you want. It is an incredibly rigid, grindy way of acquiring some basic mark making and perspective skills. The first part of it worked great for me, as I am spectrummy and dont mind grinding as it puts me in a flow state, but I only stuck with it up to the 250 box challenge. At that point I was having so much fun drawing actual things I cared about that this is what I transitioned to spend my time on. I would probably benefit from sticking with it further, but I am doing this for fun rather than to become a technically amazing illustrator. My background is photography, and this is a way for me to get stuff out very quickly without finding people and places, schlepping lights, dealing with camera stuff, developing film, scanning film, removing dust from scans, color correcting, and doing editing. It's incredibly freeing.
Firstly, online learning is not for everybody. Seriously. Not having in-person accountability can be a huge problem for some people. Taking individual art lessons or drawing classes locally might be a good way to go. These skills aren't exceptionally rare and people who wield them aren't exceptionally well-paid for doing so.

Secondly, not everybody learns at the same pace, and the course you're following might be too fast for you. Try doing each lesson twice or three times spread out over a few weeks. Some people need a little more reinforcement before it clicks, and they often wind up with better technical skills because they've made 3x the marks everyone else did to get to the same place, on the lesson plan.

Thirdly, you might need more external support. One of the biggest benefits to drawing in a room full of other people drawing the same thing with a professor walking around was hearing when I was doing something well. As you surely know, after staring at a piece for however long, it's nearly impossible to view it objectively, and having someone else saying "hey you did a great job with this hatching there. Maybe you could do some of the line work around this object right here with the same approach." If you don't have that, consider posting in online communities (that aren't toxic as hell) or taking in-person classes.

Fourthly, you might have the incredibly common streak of perfectionism you need to push through. It's psychologically hard to embark upon a task you know you don't have the skill to complete to your standards-- for some more than others. A really good way to push against this is to do a deliberately shitty version off it right off the bat. Messy crooked hairy lines, shitty shapes... just shoot to get the overall proportions approximately right and then maybe the negative space around the edges or something like that. A good quality vine charcoal which is super easily erasable, or a few colored pencils you can use for different preliminary stages in your sketching can really help you out. Counterintuitively, you can also try moving in the opposite direction. Do some fast and loose ink drawings where you can't erase and challenge yourself to finish a drawing no matter how badly you fucked it up. In the end, it's not about being able to do it perfectly, it's about having enough experience to realize how much you can fuck something up and have it still be great. Especially in ink work, those wonky lines and stuff can make some of the most compelling parts of the piece.

Fifthly, if you're getting frustrated with art generally, you might want to start with a different artform first to get the general idea of crafting images, composition, etc etc etc. Photography served that purpose for me. (And you don't need expensive equipment: most of what got me accepted to school was iphone photos and the reviewer was a photography professor. It's the underpinnings that really make something good.) If you're really new to art, generally, this is a really great step. You can't start off at a flat run if you're not confident walking.

Sixthly, be fucking kind to yourself at every possible opportunity. You will usually fail at doing so. It's ok. Just really try. Overall, when I find myself quitting or abandoning something, my first thought is "it's too hard for me" or "man I suck at this." In reality, I don't quit because it's too hard or I suck, I quit because I feel like I've failed at it. It's easy to think you just need the discipline to buckle down and rise above the challenge, but that's quite frequently bullshit. The tougher but better approach, if you can pull it off, is lowering your expectations to a level that's appropriate for where you're coming from and where you're trying to go, while still challenging you to improve. It seems like that would be easier, but it's not, because it requires confronting our egos.

Remember that technical skill is one of the least important parts of being a really good artist. Furthermore, the difficulties you're encountering are incredibly common: this is not a personality flaw, moral failing, or some fundamental intellectual shortcoming, and it doesn't mean you won't be really fucking great. Stick with it friend!

I want to say how much this means to me that you wrote this. I feel hopeful again. Thank you.
Well, life drawing is a great way to get work on storing things in your brain you can draw on (!) when you want to construct things from your imagination esp. if anatomical likeness is your goal. However: What I was talking about in my comment was not to recommend any one path to get to drawing from from imagination, it was a lament that the book just does not talk at all about what I am personally getting the most excitement from in drawing: the thrill of the skill of getting things from your head to the page. And you definitely don't need to do classical life drawing to get there. If you look at the Lynda Barry/Ivan Brunetti style of having fun and drawing things from your head where anatomical likeness is not the ultimate goal you clearly can do that without doing a whole lot of life drawing.
> the author completely avoids the thing that is the most brain expanding and thrilling part of drawing which is learning to draw from imagination rather than copying or tracing photos

All the drawing tutorials for beginners I have seen putted a lot of emphasis on drawing from refences first, before you draw from imagination. The reason stated again and again was that you need to learn how the object looks like before you can draw it from imagination - that people do not know how objects really looks like unless they trained it first.

Excessive focus on copying from reference is the old atelier method, and it is not the only way. Sure, you need to do some of this, but it is IMHO better to focus on trying to draw from imagination from day one, and then find the weaknesses in what you produce and then draw from reference or watch a tutorial to for example figure out how to make a mouth look ok. This way you are trying to solve concrete problems that are obstacles to what you are passionate about rather than doing endless aimless copying. This makes the process (again IMHO) more fun and sustainable. You do need to have a little bit of a general framework to base your drawing around, and that can be gotten (if you like to draw people) by learning some basics about how to draw stick like figures marionettes as an armature to build your person around. See for example the first few chapters in Loomis book "Figure drawing for all it is worth". This has worked for me as a beginner. For a video putting forward a similar view from an expert, check out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rlF-qE-vsM
The video you linked literally recommends looking at the references. Sycra in general recommends refences all the time.
i haven't read the book, but i'm a fan of his fiction. while listening to one of his interviews about the drawing book, several times i thought, "is this supposed to be a metaphor for writing?" because the idea could've been applied to writing. with that idea in your mind, does the book still suck?
I don't really know how one would be able to learn very much about writing from this book other in the basic sense of "hey: creative things can be a fun pastime, and can be relaxing if you are feeling burnt out".
what books / videos / classes do you recommend?
Where do I start?
Here is what I did: I started with drawabox.com, which is basically a very rigid but free of cost boot camp style of starting from just drawing a line on a piece of paper. Simultaneously I read Lynda Barries' book on comic making and her book "Syllabus", and adopted her way of doing quick visual journaling every day. I read the Loomis book "Fun with a pencil" which is a book aimed at kids for drawing cartoony little things progressing to more realistic anatomy. This lead me to Loomis' books "Figure drawing for all its worth" and "Successful drawing". (the latter being a book on incorporating perspective in drawing). From there I have used various resources. A breakthrough for me was Rebecca Tillman Youngs online course on portrait drawing (which is basically teaching the Loomis method of drawing the head in a slow and methodical way) in that it allowed me to draw faces that I genuinely was excited about. From there resources that have been useful to me are Marco Bucci's online class "Drawing for advanced beginners", the books "Figure drawing: design and invention", "Anatomy for artists, drawing form and pose", "the Vilppu manual", ""Anatomy for sculptors", and "Rey's anatomy" (not Grey's anatomy). The best book on perspective I have found is Atteberry's "The complete guide to perspective". I have read a ton of other books, but these are the keepers.

In five months I have gone through three 100 page sketchbooks and I have had fun and reached flow state pretty consistently the whole time through. The first of the sketchbooks was basically just drawabox exercises up until the 250 boxes challenge. At this point I transitioned away from drawabox as I was having enough fundamentals to have fun and make progress on drawings I cared about.

All these resources and books may seem overwhelming and you definitely don't need to go through all of this material. The key for learning drawing is to figure out what is exciting for you to draw and get over that first hump to get to where you can draw something you see have potential even if it is not great. That's when the momentum builds and it becomes self propelling. Drawing is basically a language for communicating 3d form on a 2d surface, and like learning Spanish the key is just to get enough of a vocabulary that you can get started conversing. The rest follows once you can talk a little.

Learning to draw? If you have access to LinkedIn Learning (often available through public libraries if you don't have a premium account) all of the fundamental art courses there are absolutely fantastic. I'm an art school guy and while there's obviously a ton of value in getting personalized critique and tailored assignments from professors, the breadth, quality, and format of the LinkedIn Learning (formerly Lynda.com) material-- from drawing, to watercolor work, to graphic design, to character design, to photography-- is truly exceptional.

If you're savvy, you can probably get ahold of the course books for the self-paced "Famous Artists School" courses from the 50s. They later became the "Art Instruction Schools" courses that had the commercials with that dorky guy saying "Do you like to draw, or paint, or maybe just sketch and doodle?" It was created by Norman Rockwell and Albert Dorne specifically to guide people to teach themselves how to draw. You obviously can't get the mail-in critique, but if you have the discipline to do all of the exercises, you'll still do well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWi1pCR3peg

NerdForge recently helped her boyfriend learn to draw from scratch, and she lists all the stuff she used to help him get there, and you can watch him go through parts of them as well.

I've seen https://drawabox.com/ recommended before. I have it bookmarked but haven't started it yet.
"Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain" by Betty Edwards is one of the most important books I've ever read, because it taught me why I couldn't (and still really can't) draw. Read that first, then you can take any course online or offline that you wish to practice. I did like drawabox but it teaches a specific method and style. It isn't the only way to get better.