▲ 61 points
back
49 comments
Paris might still exist but the people who built it are no more.
For me it's weird to visit Paris. Maybe I've read to much French literature which set some expectations. Such as Paris being inhabited by mostly Parisians. People who lived there for generations.
Is Paris still Paris without its people? For me it isn't. It's mostly a collection of buildings, places, corners, parks, monuments, historical places, a large museum of what was once Paris.
It's the same way I feel about Venice. It's nice, but it's mostly a museum.
Paris is mostly inhabited by parisians, born there, where do you think we all go once we come of age?
You might have came in Summer/August, where all the parisians disappear because there are too many tourists and it's too hot so if you can afford it you go to the south of France/abroad.
Also the experience you will have as a tourist is indeed of a museum, the experience you will have living here inside french circles is vastly different but, like in every city, it's not something that you can create in 1 week or 2. I would even say, if you're not french or parisian, you will have difficulties joining the right inner circles. It's not a good thing, it's not something to be proud of, but the parisian life is extremely lively. It's exactly the same than in New York, there are more to scratch than the surface but it's not something that you can "consume" easily just because you have a wallet.
> where do you think we all go once we come of age?
The suburbs and smaller towns (Nantes, Chartres, Bordeaux, Toulouse etc.)
I saw a ton of friends and family move out of Paris as they started building a family or wanted more than just the urban life.
It's actually still extremely easy to get to Paris from more than 20~30km away. Many keep commuting to Paris while taking a healthy distance.
1/3 of Parisians are born there, 1/3 are born in France, 1/3 outside of France: https://www.paris.fr/pages/seulement-30-des-parisiens-sont-n...
I'm surprised, and so my statement above is wrong as more people in Paris are born outside of it, I would have thought it was more than 50%
You see Paris as a museum because you visit it as a tourist. I see it as a business place that's cumbersome to reach and navigate because half of the clients I have to visit are there. I have visited Paris for tourism as well, but it's much more than that (for one thing, it's about a third of the GDP of France).
As for true Parisians, they have been a minority for ages, there are famously more Bretons in Paris than in Brittany and true Parisians will always tell you that they are actually from Paris. That's not one of the new changes of Paris.
I don't know about Paris, but I live in New York and I can see how it is both less and more than what tourists come there for. It is constantly changing including the people who live there. You can't really get a grip on it it is elusive. It is all around you but where? Tourists come there to find something which true New Yorkers themselves cannot find. But it makes me feel I'm not alone. I have the same destiny as everybody else. There's no us vs. them we're all in the same boat.
Feels true of every big city? Certainly of London and Bangkok in which I’ve spent many years
Kind of a strange take.
> Paris might still exist but the people who built it are no more.
If we are speaking of building then the most defining era for Paris date back to 1870 with the Haussman transformation so not exactly a surprise there.
> People who lived there for generations.
Not sure what this special breed bring to Paris versus those living there for mere decades ? Generations of nepotism ?
Migration are not exactly new, those from Aveyron started in mass from 1880.
> Maybe I've read to much French literature which set some expectations.
Humm maybe the Paris from your expectations never existed ?
Not sure which author you are speaking of but there is a high probability they were not born in Paris but probably lived there later on.
And lastly while it's certain that peoples are moving out from Paris especially when they start to want children I believe it's still far from the state Venise is in where half of the dwellings in the city center is for tourism.
Just a reminder of historical milestones for Paris:
- 1789 The revolution, which lasted a decade, Louis XVI being guillotined in 1793, and the entire 1800 being busy with Napoleon, Restauration of monarchy, then Napoleon III,
- 1880 Haussmann refurbishes Paris. Think of the writings of Zola and Victor Hugo. Every grandiose avenue, every beautiful building, every train station comes from that period. Gare d’Orsay (now a museum) with 15 tracks and its magnificent glass ceiling is built in just 2 years, along with a dozen kilometers of rails under the river’s level. Yeah imagine that today, they can’t even build a cycle lane in 2 years. Orsay was just built for Exposition Universelle then shut down like 10 years later.
- 1889 Exposition universelle where the Eiffel tower is built. Paris is truly the capital of the world, everyone comes to see it, Paris and France are able to execute grand plans in just a few years. The Russian cour of the tsar speaks French because it’s classy, President Poincare forms an alliance with Russia and visits Saint Pétersbourg in 1913.
- XXth century: Nothing really happened in Paris (with the exception of May 1968, the local version of the worldwide cultural changes about freedom of the youths of the 1970ies, feminism, anticonservatism, etc). The entire history of the world happened in Berlin, the gay bars in 1934, the Nazis, the Russian rapes after the occupation, the 40-year wall, the Weidervereinigung in 1989, the EU in the 2000s… Berlin truely was the capital of the world’s events for an entire century.
- 2024 The Olympic Games in Paris. Pay close attention to the events, it will tell you what Paris wants to be.
What would you say will be the capital of the world for the next 50 years? I’d say San Francisco, because so much of our world is dictated by our startups’ community policies. Or maybe Beijin?
That’s ignoring an important period before WW1 and between both world wars, where Paris was a magnet for American artists and enjoyed a minor golden age.
OTOH Berlin never really had the cultural importance that Paris, London or New York had. The counter-culture was much broader than gay bars and both England and the UK were much more influent. I’m not denigrating Berlin because I love the city, but it just is not in the same league. And it certainly was not prominent for a century.
Not sure about Berlin. As a European, I'd be pretty sure the capital if the world in 1980 was New York for instance.
This. The XX century belonged to the US, with New York and Los Angeles attracting people and dictating the cultural and economic agenda. (West) Berlin's cultural life was undoubtedly lively but hardly dominant, even just getting there was difficult. Even just in Europe, London, Paris, Roma, Milano, Amsterdam - they were all much more relevant than Berlin at any one time after WWII. A few gay bars and Bowie albums doth not a cultural hegemony make.
The generational link you mentioned has been broken in pretty much any city or town in the world, for decades at this point. Cheap planes and telecoms let people shuffle all over the planet, and the ones who will live and die in the same city or town where they were born will forever be fewer and fewer. Paris has its people - the people who choose to live there today. They might not look or talk like Napoleonic Parisians, but so what? Paris as a whole still feels very much alive and inhabited in pretty much every corner.
I think the problem is that you have an idea of Paris in your mind and refuse to accept that reality does not match it (and probably never did - literature is never a perfect mirror, since it will reflect an author's view rather than reality).
Venice has a different problem. The historic centre is literally dying out: nobody wants to put up with the annoying logistics anymore, and buildings are more profitable when used by tourists; so the "locals" (as in long-time residents; many of them were not born there) choose to live on land instead, in Mestre (which keeps growing). What is left is indeed largely a museum, an open-air tourist trap. This is well-understood and nominally opposed by local politicians, but it's unlikely that these macro-trends can be significantly reversed.
Reminds me of the movie Midnight in Paris, where a guy comes to Paris with romantic visions and is disappointed by the modern touristy reality. Whither the 1920s Paris of Hemingway, Dali, and Stein? And then he accidentally happens across a portal to that era, and falls in love with a girl… who is entirely disillusioned with the interwar Paris that doesn’t live up to her romantic associations with the Paris of Balzac and Toulouse-Latrec, the Moulin Rouge at its peak! So he shows her the portal which takes them back in time to the 1870s where they go to the Moulin Rouge and meet Toulouse-Latrec, who rues the loss of the Paris of the 1820s. What a glorious time period that was!
> People who lived there for generations.
Yes and no, Paris was an economic powerhouse even back then and attracted a lot of workers from the nearby regions,
There was a large influx of Italians at the end of the 19th century, and then Portuguese and Spanish early in the 20th. Some of their descendants are typical Parisians, and they have been for 2 or 3 generations. But it took some time for them to graduate from foreigners to archetypes.
Friendly reminder that "Paris syndrome" is a thing:
> Maybe I've read to much French literature which set some expectations.
See also: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_syndrome>
Note that french people saying "inshallah" say it as a joke (they use this word for fun effect), which isn't the same as really adopting this word. As for arab-derived slang, i know a lot of parents who absolutely forbid their kids to use those words, and the kids only do it to rebel, or there again to sound "special". But they'll be extra careful ( and will be able to) stop speaking in this manner in a professional context.
Which is to say, there's still a HUGE divide in the population, and the fact that the "french" part is using a few words from the other part shouldn't fool you into thinking that immigration is going well.
Don't be surprised by the results in the upcoming EU poll.
> Note that french people saying "inshallah" say it as a joke (they use this word for fun effect), which isn't the same as really adopting this word.
I wonder if that's how Christian Spaniards started saying 'ojalá'[0] back in the day, before it became fully adopted into the language!
Never heard inch allah used as a joke in France, I've always heard it in its original meaning but it's not broadly used.
> Note that french people saying "inshallah" say it as a joke (they use this word for fun effect),
To be fair that is how a lot of new vocabulary ends up in the standard lexicon.
Total tangent there's this thing in Japanese where a word ends up meaning one thing and also its opposite, due to being used ironically. Sometimes the original meaning is lost, sometimes it isn't. Like 貴様 (originally a honorific, now an insult) or 適当 meaning at the same time proper and sloppy.
> Total tangent there's this thing in Japanese where a word ends up meaning one thing and also its opposite, due to being used ironically
This is quite common outside Japanese: e.g. in English, ‘wicked’ can be positive or negative.
Splitting the society in two is a simplification that the far right try to make believe is a reality. There is not the French and the others, society and movement of people is much more complex.
There is a far right wave currently for sure, but this is propelled by a mix of issue, not just immigration.
I know the left likes to blame it on the complex structures of society ("it's the system's fault") and have bright scholars that want to go beyond the immediate perception of things, however in this case i don't think their attempts have been very convincing to say the least.
It's worth to read the full poem: https://www.bonjourpoesie.fr/lesgrandsclassiques/poemes/char...
That's "Périphérique", not "Périférique".
That reminded my of the Périphérique ghost rider "Black Prince" that became famous some years ago https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cH1-tieh9rA
Spoken like a true Parisian!
Yes, no true Scotsman would say so :-)
Yes, it's the same greek root as "peripheral". A "périphérique" is a main road tha goes around the city. Paris' peripherique is called Le périphérique because it is famous a probably the largest in France.
TFA opens with somewhat weird mentions to immigration waves, which become more concerning when we learn the author works at Le Point, a publication that favors right wing political points of view, but they eventually fairly describe (I think) the physical and demographic evolution of the metropolis.
FWIW "immigrant-descended communities" is the politically correct way to call people that don't have Nos ancêtres les Gaulois* - "our fathers the Gauls", is a phrase that refers to what was taught in schools until approx. the generation of Boomers, and has become a cliché as it has become more and more untrue - if it ever was true. It can be interpreted as racist in specific cases.
> TFA opens with somewhat weird mentions to immigration waves, which become more concerning when we learn the author works at Le Point, a publication that favors right wing political points of view, but they eventually fairly describe (I think) the physical and demographic evolution of the metropolis.
Let’s not get carried away. Le Point is fairly mainstream liberal magazine. Yes, it is right-wing, but it is not Valeurs Actuelles.
Le Point has been criticized for anti-muslin tendencies by anti-racist associations [1] among other criticism about dishonest behavior. Its director of publication have been found guilty of libel against Chinese people, yet he is still employed by Le Point as of today.
Just because other journals are worse doesn't makes Le Point a respectable journal.
This is a typical case of shifting the baseline or "normalization of deviance" [2].
[1] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Point#Accusations_d'islamop... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shifting_baseline
> Even “Nos Ancêtres les Gaulois” is still there, although it no longer has “vin à volonté.”
Google Maps shows it permanently closed since 2022 though [1].
> This project points to what may be the biggest transformation yet: the opening up of Paris to its suburbs
Actually, that's only the OFFICIAL truth (or an architect fantasm), as much as saying that limiting the number and speed of cars on the Peripherique will make better living conditions for those living there...
Truth is: the Peripherique is largely more used by the suburbs (even to go from one to the other, east and north to west and south mostly) than by Parisians. The plans on the Peripherique will mostly impact badly these people on their day-to-day but... the Mayor Hidalgo think that
1) it will help her to be reelected by the "bo-bo" (bourgeois boheme - left upper class) living in Paris (that has been too costly for other population)
2) it will leave a "testament" of her Mayorship "in the stone" (a bit like Mitterand did with Palais du Louvres, Arche de la Defense and so...) and turn Paris into a tourist dream (like Venice) more than an economic and social capital
Studies show time and again that cars in Paris are only used by the richest people. I live in the suburbs and I frankly don't care if big SUVs are banned from Paris, in fact I encourage it. I go to work by RER and metro, like everyone else.
I always wonder what are the mechanisms that let recent immigrants from the global south settle in the capitals thah the local white collar youth has hard time affording.
I am from one such community, so I can say what I think are the key factors here:
1) Refugee / Skilled worker policy combine to give communities from the global south a healthy mix of size in numbers and money to support many of them. Skilled workers from these communities are really generous and spend a lot to maintain their communities and community centers / the most unfortunate among them.
2) There is a much more collectivist mindset which is actually very helpful in a freer, more free market system. Many global south countries are less free in terms of business. But Western countries are better about these things. Communities abroad get along when the same people might not have been friends back at home, this cohesiveness lets them open and patronize businesses in the community better. These people can then save on costs (rent, food costs, etc.) while putting that money into collective asset control or other money making systems.
3) It's easier to find the community with Internet. In the past you would need to find or know someone when moving abroad and the options were limited. Nowadays a religious center, cultural center, or other association office or even just scanning the map for restaurant names and clusters can allow you to find your community easily from millions of miles away.
In short, local white collar youth don't have the same collective mindset with each other, and cannot grow by adding more numbers to their ranks, so these are the main differences I feel.
So as I see it, local white collar background citizens are either stretched too thin trying to maintain their peak life style, or maybe not stretched but also not sharing enough.
Perhaps the capitalistic system also does a disservice by encouraging them to keep funds in bad investment vehicles (stock, deposits) instead of social capital or a spare home.
Yes I think you have it right. Westerners are much more obsessed with their individual / nuclear family status and don't share. This has some perks, but when your competition is much more collectivist and socially cohesive, it can be a disadvantage.
Because they don’t settle in the capital. They settle in made-for-immigration suburbs that white collars don’t want to even set foot in. Basically France made immigration ghettos after the war to have cheap labour to rebuild the country.
The white collar youth complains about not being able to settle in the capital. They mean it in the most Parisian way: inside of the Périphérique, and will only consider the posh banlieues. An immigrant will be way less picky, and choose places with a local community of immigrants.
Because it's not happening, immigrants mostly lives in the suburbs, the city is unaffordable for most people and is emptying itself rapidly (in the last decade the city has shrunk by 100K+)
Is there a word like "weeaboo" but for France?
Francophile.
This is missing the pejorative connotation I'm looking for.
Paris has been invaded by non native Parisiens, scums and space scoundrels. And this is what you achieve, you fools. You have been warned.
Great video. Very “The Dude dreaming of the dancing bowling pins” vibes.