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I'm American and I've lived in Zurich for many years and visited Munich quite a bit.

Hands down: Zurich.

One of the most stunning places in the world. Expensive, to be sure, but what you get for your money makes it worth it.

Negatives: Don't expect to make friends, so try to find other expats. And you'll always be a second-class citizen if you're not Swiss (with the right name), learn to live with it. Rains a lot.

Positives: Everything else. Clean, safe, perfect hiking and skiing (and even swimming in summer), the public transportation couldn't be better, etc.

3 comments

Regarding making friends, I think quite a lot of that comes to language. Swiss kind of expect expats to learn the local language when they want to be integrated. Otherwise we kind of assume they are just “in transit” I guess.

To make matters worse, the local language in Zurich is Swiss German which is different enough from German to probably count as its own language (which will be completely useless outside of Switzerland).

And we’re not even easy to make friends with on our own. ;)

Source: I’m Swiss, originally from the agglomeration of Zurich and have worked in many international companies/with many expat colleagues.

> And we’re not even easy to make friends with on our own. ;)

Hint: there is an "english-speakers' Verein"

> (which will be completely useless outside of Switzerland)

And even within switzerland, it will probably be more useful in Ticino than in western switzerland, where the kids learn standard german in school.

You could even argue that you’re better off speaking standard German in Basel than Swiss German with a Zurich accent ;)

Swiss german: a language spoken by ~5 million people, who fail to agree on what the personal pronouns are or how to conjugate basic verbs like "to be" and "to do"...

But Swiss German isn't a language, it's the name for a collection of languages, which don't need (nor try) to agree.

ebe

> And we’re not even easy to make friends with on our own. ;)

I think that's generally true around the world. Is there actually a country where it's easy to make friends with people, especially when you're an expat ?

I moved to NYC and London and both were great for integration because so many “locals” were not born there, and do not fall back on their college friend group.

I tried to learn Zuridootsch as much as I could. I would translate when my German friends would visit. :-)

My understanding (what I was told) was that the Swiss make their deep friendships pretty early on, in school, and there's kind of a wall after that. I should have clarified that I didn't find it unfriendly but sometimes hard to get close to people, and it seems that expats tend to find each other for that reason. I would say it's a bit introverted as a culture, as opposed to say, Italy, which is an extroverted culture, for example. Not a judgement, just an observation.

Could you expand on the comparison to Munich, please? I can't imagine what could make it so much better it's worth the significant cost increase - unless you take advantage of the business opportunities I guess

I can't answer on the comparison but I expect salaries in Zurich will be also quite higher than in Munich, so that differences in cost of living may not be an issue.

Yeah, it's cost of living which is matched with higher salaries. Be very careful that you're adding that to the comparison. If you're not getting a commensurate higher salary, don't do it.

What makes it worth it? That's a good question. It's a big economic question. People will say, "Milk costs more but you make more so it's the same as a place where you make less but milk, say, costs less." That's not true. The milk, for this example, in Switzerland is so much better, higher quality, etc. So it's not an apple to apples comparison. Plus, when you're buying non-local items, such as any electronics, for example, or you're saving/investing or you travel, now your higher salary is paying off.

Edit: P.S. This is a rule of thumb I live by, having lived and worked in five countries: all things being equal otherwise (meaning personal preferences should be considered first), always always always go for the higher nominal income. Be careful in putting trust in things like PPP.

I agree with you. Also taxes are generally higher in Germany.

I read the post as saying: Zurich, if cost of living is not an condideration at all.

I don't known if anything in Munich can compete with a nice lakefront pad in Zurich.

If cost is a consideration, Munich definately. The range of great and cheap nature options near Munich is countless. It's Austria's backyard, and hanging out in the Austrian Alps and lakes is a fraction of the price of the Swiss alternative.

> And you'll always be a second-class citizen if you're not Swiss (with the right name)

Does this actually affect you? i.e. not taking in count an emotional side: career opportunities, the quality of private or public services (e.g. doctors might treat you with less care? The waiter might ignore you in a restaurant?), etc...

I wouldn't read too much into it; I'm literally heaping the highest praise I can on a city. I love Switzerland and I deeply love Zurich. Make no mistake. This is one of its downsides.

> career opportunities: yes, it can affect you

> the quality of private or public services: no

> the emotional side: yes, a bit (why not take it into account?)