Estrogen: A Trip Report

It's chilling watching the latest political powers openly declare that trans people are not who they are inside and must never be allowed to become what they are inside, while eliminating legal recognition and protection and criminalizing life-saving transition healthcare. I find myself retreating into dissociation because to feel the horrors is more than I can bear.

I lost interest in psychedelics after transitioning.

I have a friend that sometimes described having good trips when she got a strong dose of hormones.

I wonder how I would feel when I begin with hrt.

Is gender dysphoria thus caused by the body craving testosterone or estrogen hormones, when it doesn’t have?

Amen

A slightly different but closely related question for those who are answering: what do you attribute the difference to? Is it biological in basis, spiritual/metaphysical, or cultural?

I keep hearing people say "gender is a social construct" and those same people then go on to emphatically support transgender as a concept. This leads me to wonder: if gender is a social construct, is identifying as transgender the result of feeling pressure to conform to a cookie-cutter definition of what someone with male/female parts is meant to be like? If so, is being transgender also just a social construct that can and maybe should be addressed by loosening up our tight expectations for gender roles? Or is being transgender more biological than cultural for you?

I can't speak for other trans women, but is kind of how I describe my experience with this. And this is from someone who is a later-transitioner, talking about this specific type of social dysphoria [0].

It took me enormous effort to relate to other men, and I was never sure if I was doing it correctly. I would go out of my way to try to learn "how to man," including having typically male-coded interests (like sports, or home repair) that I really didn't actually care about but knew I had to because it was socially expected of me. I knew I had to, because I had to operate in that world, but I was never comfortable, none of it ever came naturally and all of it just felt wrong.

I was desperate to relate to women. It would hurt that I wouldn't be able to participate in that world even though I longed to be a part of it. Often my wife and I would have grill out parties, and I would be at my expected place outside with the guys, talking stuff I hated, but I longed to be chatting with the other women inside. I feel comfortable as a woman, and much more comfortable relating to other women in my life.

Do I still have male friends? Of course. I have men I worked with for decades and that I'm still friends with. Our relationships definitely changed a bit, but we still have shared experiences that bind us together. At the same time, with my female friends, our relationships definitely changed as well. Things felt different. Our conversations got deeper and more meaningful, and I feel like I "know" some of them better than I ever knew any of my male friends.

I also kept some of my male interests because I'm interested in them.. I still love aviation and trains. Definitely male-coded interests (though there are quite a few more women than one might expect.) I also picked up, or in some cases learned to stop repressing, typically feminine-coded interests. I have far more fun with dress than I ever cared about doing as a guy. Or, now I proudly own that I read romance novels instead of sheepishly hiding my kindle.

[0] https://genderdysphoria.fyi/en/social-dysphoria

I am a trans woman. For me it's closer to wrong body, as I do get a lot of physical dysphoria, but I'm always careful when talking about gender. I like to split it into three components - gender identity, gender expression, and gender roles.

Currently, my gender identity and feminine expression feel (very) correct, but when I was repressing and thought I was a man, both my gender identity and masculine expression felt wrong.

Gendered interests are gender roles. On this topic there seems to be a double bind applied to trans people. Conforming to roles is viewed as bad (see other comments in this thread), but not conforming to them (such as keeping "male" interests) is viewed as evidence our identities are invalid. A lot of trans people do retain the interests they grew up with, but to me, at least, that's just inertia. We are encouraged or often coerced into interests stereotypically related to our birth sex. I felt heavily restricted and unable to explore feminine interests growing up, due to a combination of society, culture, family, and other relationships.

Feel free to ask more, I'm pretty comfortable talking about these things as long as I have the energy.

I'm a transwoman who had dysphoria the moment puberty started. Before puberty I as fine with my body, but once it started it became complete body horror. The word dysphoria is used a lot, but I think body horror is a more relatable concept. Have you ever seen the movie The Fly? It's like that. It's not that I felt I had the wrong body, it's that my body was literally changing into something I did not want and did not fit me. When my voice changed it wrecked me. I begged the adults around me for hormones or blockers something to make it stop and they all refused. If I was born a girl, people would think it was fucked up if the adults forced me to take testosterone and develop male characteristics. But because I was born a boy, that means I'm forced to take testosterone even if I know 100% I'm not? I know they were trying their best and wanted to make sure I didn't make the wrong choice, but by doing that, they deprived me of being able to make the correct choice. I started estrogen at 18, the moment I had autonomy, and haven't once had a doubt and that was back in the late 2000s.

As for male interests, I like computers and programming. I think of it as less of a "male interest" as a "nerd interest" since most of the males I grew up with were into sports, something I'm very much not.

As for relating to men, I'm attracted to men. I like programming which is male dominated. But I wouldn't say I fully relate to them. I don't really understand a lot of things about men and I think outside of some interest overlap, I don't relate that much.

I haven’t really found that to be true in my friend groups, but also it is really common for people on the spectrum to be trans, and a lot of autistic people in general tend to have interests that we view as male-coded.

> Perhaps this is an insensitive question/comment, but do trans women feel like they have the wrong body or the wrong wholesale gender?

It varies.

> In my experience with trans women I know, they still seem to relate primarily to men (they still gravitate towards male dominated interests) whereas many gay men I know seem to relate primarily with women, and gravitate towards women interests.

For whatever it's worth, I think observations like this are as useful a cue to look inward for an explanation as they are to look outwards.

For one thing, part of the whole "gender" thing is the way people's preconceptions lead them to parse information about others (and themselves!), and your sense of trends is probably influenced by that. (E.g. when a (gay) man gravitates towards "women interests" that may just be more salient than when a woman does, so you notice it more.) For another, you might be in a lot of male-dominated spaces (e.g. this one), so the set of trans women you know is probably not that representative. These might not be the whole story, but they certainly have a role to play in whatever reconciliation you're seeking. Gender is difficult to navigate: we're all swimming in it.

For me personally: I'm "nonbinary", whatever that means. As I see it today, for me being trans feels like more of a "wrong wholesale gender" thing than a "wrong body" thing. (But I'm open to the idea that I'm just not in touch with my body.) Part of the "wholesale gender" thing is the realization at some point in my life that "gender" was playing a much bigger role in my life than I had realized, including how I relate to people, what interests I gravitate towards, and so on. Something I find deeply aversive.

But I'm also averse to, like, rearranging my whole life to retroactively "fix the gender story" around it, just to make myself more legible. You might parse me as gravitating towards interests that line up with my assigned gender at birth (AGAB), and maybe even as relating to people primarily of my AGAB, and so on. I'm sure some people go further and functionally take this as an excuse to continue to relate to me through the lens of my "birth gender" or what have have you. I'm sure it's easier. From my perspective, I suspect those people are underestimating how much of a clusterfuck the whole "gender" thing is.

> In my experience with trans women I know, they still seem to relate primarily to men (they still gravitate towards male dominated interests) whereas many gay men I know seem to relate primarily with women, and gravitate towards women interests.

Interestingly, this has also been observed and researched by clinical psychologists who study sexuality and gender dysphoria.

A decent summary of the research can be read here: https://4thwavenow.com/2017/12/07/gender-dysphoria-is-not-on...

Note the difference in presentation the authors describe between "childhood-onset gender dysphoria" and "autogynephilic gender dysphoria". The males you refer to as relating primarily to men and gravitating towards male-dominated interests are more likely to be in the latter category.

Interests are not inherently gender-specific. I know many women who gravitate towards wargames, sports, and the like, typically male-dominated hobbies. We need to stop pursuing this notion that an activity is inherently male or inherently female.

Most trans women I know are the exact opposite, they gravitate towards extremely feminine interests, like makeup, fashion, design, etc. Inherent attraction towards a particular interest only dictates your personality type, I don't think it's meaningful insofar as it relates to gender dysphoria -- I think that stems from a much deeper, much more subconscious phenomenon which is adjacent to body dysmorphia. But I digress.

I proffer a question to those skeptical about gender transition: with the rise of GLP-1 blockers, many have found holes in the body positivity movement, in that a lot of formerly obese people who found solace in Ozempic and lost a lot of weight -- this accounts for a body transformation. Many report their symptoms of body dysmorphia disappeared entirely. Is this not the same for HRT and trans people? The other issue is that many are quick to compare the plight of a trans person to that of an anorexic -- but it's already established that anorexia nervosa is a special class of eating disorder that is multifactorial in origin and etiology.

If you're content with GLP-1 blockers and Ozempic being used to combat obesity, then you should have no issue with HRT. It's essentially the same thing, being used to treat a very similar condition. A lot of obese people don't necessarily want to be skinny, they just want to feel comfy in their own skin, and that's a trait they share with trans people.

I guess (I really do mean 'guess') that they experience a disorienting sense of disassociation which is comparable, though much more shocking, to the situation of other people who realize, late in life, that their difficulties in relating and connecting to other people are not imaginary.

Most commonly, this is comparable to people who realize that they have been having problems, for years, because they are "on the spectrum" or have Asperger's or autism-adjacent conditions or, perhaps, some ADHD/ADD challenges. I'm sure that there are many people in the HN community who have been surprised to discover this about themselves.

For example, this man, who has been successful in very many ways: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57045770

For people who discover challenges related to gender identity and dysphoria though, the great difference is that they're not only realizing that they have the "wrong" mind, but they even have the "wrong" physical body, too! [In that sentence, my opinion is that the definition of "wrong" is based more on the traditional viewpoints of conventional culture, and not so much on reality].

don't forget that socialization plays a role. boys are guided to certain activities in their youth, girls to others.

One possible resolution is that these interests are male-dominated not because of an inherent gender-based preference, but because women (or, more precisely, people who are perceived to be women) are excluded from them. Trans women who are still perceived as men are able to avoid some of these exclusionary processes, and they maintain their interest even after they start to be seen as women.

I don't think it's an insensitive question at all. To answer - As a trans woman, interests/hobbies are not really a marker of gender that I feel is important to me. I would say the same is true of all my trans friends, although ofc that is not a representative sample, so take it with a grain of salt.

For me, in no particular order, these are the elements of sex/gender that I find important (and which were crucial for me to align during my transition):

* My body. This was perhaps the single most important one. Hormones worked wonders here, as well as growing out my hair, shaving, learning to take care of my skin, etc.

* Clothing/makeup went a long way towards making me feel better about myself. It takes a very long time and a lot of practice and skill-building to be "good" at fashion/makeup/etc, but it was worth it.

* My personality. This one is the hardest to describe. I can only say that when my body ran on testosterone, I was miserable, antisocial, arrogant, and annoying, and after switching over to estrogen, I am much happier, better at conversation, more empathetic, and by all reports much more likeable.

* My relationship to other women. It's hard to describe, but as I transitioned I became a lot closer to the women in my life, and grew apart slightly from the men in my life.

I think in part this emerges from the negative side of being a woman in society (being leered at/catcalled/harassed/stalked/patronized/discriminated against/etc). It leads women to stick together and trust each other more implicitly than men. So as a trans woman, gradually being welcomed into this "club" was very gender-affirming (although the negative stuff still sucks :/)

* Name and pronouns. At this point (~4 years) I pass enough in public that I am essentially never misgendered, but on the rare occasion I am, it certainly ruins my day. Pronouns matter more than cis people might think.

* Relationship to my family. Being called "daughter" by my parents, doing mom/daughter stuff with my mom, etc.

There are probably other factors that I'm not thinking of right now, but this is what comes to mind as I write this. And notably, my interests/hobbies aren't really included there. I do software development, I'm into skateboarding and punk music and videogames, I play dungeons and dragons. All "male-coded" hobbies for the most part, but I really just attribute that to the fact that I developed my hobbies as a kid, and as a kid I was a boy with friends who were boys and who did boyish stuff.

I personally don't find that that affects my perception of my gender at all. Hopefully this helps clear up your confusion! Let me know if there's anything I can clarify further.

The people I know couldn't relate to men at all, felt like completely different species. While they may have some interests from their "past" life, many of them felt that they could now enjoy things women did without judgement, and so they did.

This seems to be yet another one of the antitrans throwaway accounts that keep being created on this site.

Yes, they're reliable. Source: I am trans femme, have spoken to many others who transitioned the opposite way (trans masc). We compare notes.

In 1966 Dr. Harry Benjamin (who worked with Lynn) documented early 20th century hormone research and treatment options in his book, "The Transsexual Phenomenon": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Transsexual_Phenomenon

> What does this mean?

My understanding was like... you know those spring diagrams, where edges of a graph are all attached by a spring, and physics sorta causes nodes to cluster naturally? I think this is saying, "I wish all the space around me could order itself into a more natural and pleasing shape."

> Same here

Dyads are like... imagine you had two vectors, represented by lego bricks. After attaching them, rather than having a red brick and a blue brick, you have a particular Red-Blue brick. So, one can imagine these unique shapes move and vibrate in ways that are unique to that pair.

The author is saying, I think, "Individual preferences aren't composed of atomic units, but rather subtle adjustments in all the combinations of those individual pieces. Evolution probably looks for places where those combinations line up nicely (and avoids places they don't line up nicely), and tunes the organism to seek those combinations."

I didn't understand that sentence, but from the subsequent descriptions I gathered that details became "less loud" and less noticeable. Do you know the so-called "OCD"-annoying memes where you have images with something just slightly improper or off? I gather that these bother the OP less now.

Anecdotal, but I found that my sense of smell improved significantly after a long time taking estrogen, and I've heard many similar one-off stories from other people who've done so too. It certainly does change your physical perception of the world in a few ways, as well as the general feeling of existing in one's body.

One recurring theme I've heard from people going from majority testosterone to majority estrogen is a feeling like a continuous 'buzzing' sensation in their head had finally stopped; this is something I personally experience, and there's a certain degree of relaxed serenity that comes with it for me. (This said, experiences vary a lot, and many who have had both primary hormones prefer the feeling of testosterone.)

I personally think that it's a beautiful opportunity to get to experience life through both sets of hormones; it's offered a lot of interesting perspective on my personal notions of 'self', and allowed me to develop empathy for different experiences others experience in their bodies.

Gendered cliches are incredibly common, but I’ve never heard one that involves women liking sweet food more or less than men, which you’d expect if there were actual differences in taste I think

Women are generally better at perceiving and distinguishing colors and smells, according to the studies we have. Anecdotally, my sense of smell has gone from dull to vibrant over the course of my (MtF) transition, and I have a friend who no longer experiences the color-blindness she used to before hers, though I'm not aware of any scientific evidence or inquiry in this area.

You are assuming that people mostly experience the world in exactly the same way. That is a huge assumption that's likely to be wrong.

There are some established differences. Women have better colour, taste, and smell discrimination. Some women are tetrachromats with an extra colour sense, while men are more likely to have red/green colour blindness.

Men have better night vision, are more aware of motion, and are better at tracking location and judging distances.

As a fun aside on language, I prefer "they", explicitly, e.g. I pick "they" in pronoun dropdowns, I often wear a "they" pronoun pin, and so on. But insofar as people think in terms of these different versions of "they", I prefer the "'unknown/unspecified' version" over the "'prefers they' version"! Turns out that's hard to communicate.

If being annoying by (not-)answering with "mu" to all gender/pronoun questions communicates it better, maybe it's a point in favor of being annoying!

IMO it points at some cracks in the perspective that there are different versions in the first place.