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I'm just surprised how the responses here(including the original announcement post) at HN of all places are mild and at times indifferent to the fact that we are about to give up control of our devices and make Google the arbitrator of what we can run on them. That ship may have sailed for ios but it hasn't for android yet.

This is the time to ask what we can do about this, how do we stop it. How do we raise awareness among people, among law makers or people whose opinions matter to make Google take notice.

I'm all for alternatives like linux phones but it's not realistic in the timeframe. It will be a sad day if this comes to pass without least bit of resistance.

If you sell your new platform as "open" to gain market share and then break that promise of openness after you successfully drive competing platforms out of the market, that sounds a lot like fraudulent marketing to me.
The mild response shouldn't surprise you. I think the majority of American consumers and developers use iOS and they have little to no problem with the highly controlled and monopolized system.

Apple controls ridiculous detail of your application and there are many developers who think that it is necessary for Apple to keep the high quality of iOS.

Actually I was shocked when one of my coworkers told me that it is a very good idea and Google should have done it sooner.

>This is the time to ask what we can do about this, how do we stop it. How do we raise awareness among people, among law makers or people whose opinions matter to make Google take notice.

You and me don't get a vote on the Google board. The current government is not what I'd call fiercely pro-consumer. People say that money talks, but what's really in this season is tacky golden bribes; not an area where consumer advocates have a comparative advantage.

Raising awareness for a change that Google is already communicating widely and openly, is unlikely to scare Google very much.

If you want to take this seriously, it's going to need something beyond the usual token resistance that consists of angry social media posts.

Outside of regulation, or a large portion of users switching to better, freer alternatives, I think the question is quickly going to become: how can we get around this and other identity verification nonsense?
The solution here is to reject Google devices and switch to AOSP-derived distributions like Graphene and Lineage that patch out such arbitrary restrictions. You can buy a Pixel (ironically), flash GrapheneOS, and enjoy a phone that runs most Android apps without giving Google any of your data.
Honestly just asking what good is Android certification on a device that has no network access?

Turn certification off and your... banking apps... and wireless pay... and play store... and online game cheat detectors... stop working? That you... already weren't using apparently because you have no network?

Sorry, I'm having a really the hard time following the use case behind the outrage here.

Everyone is mad because they won't have Android certification on devices that can't benefit from Android certification?

"I'm just surprised how the responses here(including the original announcement post) at HN of all places are mild and at times indifferent to the fact that we are about to give up control of our devices and make Google the arbitrator of what we can run on them"

Some might argue the corporate OS[1] user never had "control of [their] devices"

As in the past, more hassles are to come for Android users, but some might doubt this idea that users currently have control or ever had control

Why the hassles

Because the user has no control over the OS

The corporation might increase or decrease the hassles, making users happy or unhappy (or indifferent), but either way the user never has control

In a non-corporate OS the user can generally edit the OS to her liking

Introducing hassles in a non-corporate would cause users who were annoyed to remove them

In other words, if users choose a non-corporate OS where users have control then there is no need to "raise awareness among people, among law makers or people whose opinions matter to make Google take notice"

1. For example, the ones from Silicon Valley and Redmond

>How do we raise awareness among people

People are aware, they just don't care.

We lost capitalism a long time ago. Us frogs are beyond the boiling point, hurdling towards the inevitable.
I use Android over iphone precisely because I'm free to install whatever apps I want.

With this planned change my reasons to ditch Android and go to Apple increase dramatically. Why would i want half assed google walled garden when I could get the Apple one?

Sucks for the people who can't afford an Apple device and honestly sucks for all of us who enjoyed installing all kinds of apps on our devices.

Same.

Combined with bad security practice from OEMs, preinstalled bloatware, app fragmentation (I love having Samsung "Phone" app and stock phone app at the same time) and customer service (try replacing your phone battery and compare the experience of ubreakifix and Apple store), I don't see a reason to go Android.

(P.S. people who cannot afford the latest iPhone can always purchase a two year old used/"refurbished" phone. It's a solid choice and many people do that. The fact that you can now add Apple Care to 4 year old device makes this more viable.)

I could never give Apple another dime, they're the ones responsible for enabling and normalizing this.

And if Android's removal of rights lags 5-10 years behind Apple again in the future, that's a win.

Yeah, this is exactly my reasoning too. And with Google making it harder for OSes like GrapheneOS to run on Pixel devices, my next device will have to be an Apple one. There's nothing left in the Android ecosystem for me.
Yup, same here. I've even talked family members into joining me. If this goes through and locks me out of installing things that aren't officially signed, I'll be done with Android.

At least, the standard version. If Samsung or someone keeps it open, I'd probably move to that.

I have an iphone and I feel a frequent nagging in the back of my head to switch to android despite the serious created by ecosystem lock-in and it's solely for the benefit of sideloading. Like you said, why would I leave apple's refined and increasingly customizable walled garden for google's half-assed one? Especially when Google is explicitly an ad company (I know apple isn't that much better).
Why go from a devil to another? Consider Ubuntu Touch it's actually pretty good and the dev community is really welcoming. Feel like the old school linux groups.
I am out of the loop with the entire thing. I used to an android dev back then. Google's shenanigans is the reason why I left mobile dev. Does this mean I cannot even compile and install apps on my phone from android studio?
Same. Going to go for the prettier jailed garden instead of the uglier one. Can pay the cost of ugly with freedom. But if you are gonna get jailed anyways, why not choose the one with better interior decoration ?
I too am considering that. I give up many smartphone benefits in the name of privacy and control, but if open source Android withers, then I'm going to shift to choosing quality and service.
For one, I get to use a pre-paid phone, and with the price of an iPhone I get one or two Androids, which always get used until they break down.
Well to be fair even if Android were completely open: In the US, your phone is still beholden to small number carriers. They get to decide what devices can connect to their network. This determines much of the hardware and software of the phones on their networks.

So ultimately they own the devices that connect to them. That's why I've already stopped paying for phones and just get free ones when offered. If I do pay for one again it'll just be the cheapest Chinese one available.

Same boat. Wouldn't be hard to switch either - Android and iOS are virtually indistinguishable on the UI side now. That was the last thing holding me back.
> Why would i want half assed google walled garden when I could get the Apple one?

Can’t disagree more.

Android has both better phones and better UX. Apple is usually lagging the Asian brands by years.

I went from a Pixel 3A to an iPhone 13 and just switched back to a Pixel 10 Pro and gosh the iPhone was a complete wreck. It’s even worse with their new UI.

Unless you are somehow stuck in the Apple ecosystem, I don’t understand why people pay more for it. The idea than the Android experience is somehow subpar when all Apple has done for the past five years is merely copying it is crazy to me.

This is immensely frustrating to me.

I was an iPhone user from 2009 to 2019. In 2019, when the iTunes backup from my failed iPhone 4S wouldn't restore to an iPhone SE (it made the phone boot loop) I got frustrated and went Android.

I decided to "sideload" all non-stock software on my Android phone. I never have setup a Google Play account. I kept all the APKs for the software I loaded over the years that I used that phone.

I just got a new Android phone a couple of weeks ago. I was able to just load all the software I use day-to-day from APKs (except for a few that are, apparently, processor-specific). I imported my SMS, contacts, and call logs using a nice FOSS app[0]. It felt remarkably like moving to a new PC does. It was nice.

I am really sad Google is ending this moving forward. Jackasses.

[0] https://github.com/tmo1/sms-ie

I got a new Android phone recently as well. I am trying to see how far I can get without signing into a Google or Motorola (this is a Motorola phone) account. So far so good. I can't download any apps from the app store that were not already included when I activated the phone but I can use fdroid so I am good for the most part.
Consider becoming part of UTports community.

I recently joined it as I hated feeling powerless about this change in Android. Becoming one more working on a third option is very freeing. I'd recommend it, plus Ubuntu Touch is surprisingly a nice OS.

It doesn't sound like you even need a certified Android device? Does this even affect you?
Just remember that the play store was ruled a monopoly and the app store wasn't because the "app store doesn't even allow competition, so how could it be anti-competitive?"

It's no surprise that Google will start mirroring Apple more if closed ecosystems cannot be monopolies.

If you promise consumers that your new platform is an "open" one, you are creating a new market where devices will be made by multiple vendors and antitrust law will apply.

Google chose accelerated platform growth in exchange for being bound by antitrust restrictions.

If you create a new platform that that customers know in advance is a walled garden, like XBox, you do not face the same restrictions.

That's how the existing law works.

If you don't like how the existing law works, you have to do what the EU did and change it.

It just keeps getting worse. I think this is going to single-handedly destroy the OSS ecosystem that Android enjoys. It is incredibly frustrating watching this play out without having an alternative to migrate to.
A key question here is if installation of Google Apps can fail verification if the device is offline, or if they have some magic local public key chain of pre-authed all OK keys.

DEVELOPER_VERIFICATION_FAILED_REASON_DEVELOPER_BLOCKED is very clearly the purpose of the whole thing. Presumably this one can be triggered on an already installed app - a key question being how that triggering occurs. i.e. will the Play Store act to push out details of developers that are now blocked so devices can act on it?

I just don't get it. It's not their device to decide what code can run on it. They can gatekeep at their store, because it's their store.
Yes, so much for portability, the portability ship now is in the hand of two corporates, that do not care about what a user wants. The convenience, it offers, depends on the profitability of these corporates.

Well, I do not want to just in to one walled garden to another, so, I think, this is the end of portable devices for me. That is the stick, that Google and Apple both using to keep us in their hands, so, I'm going to do my best to say: No thank you, and F*ck off.

I might not ever buy a flagship or high-end smartphone anymore, but get a smaller laptop, and keep an old or cheap Android handy, which will have very little personal data in it. I can easily tether the Laptop with my mobile and do most of the things that are needed.

Yes, for bank applications, and some other applications, that requires app, I will keep the cheap Android handy. But, it not a personal device anymore, the thing that I loved about Android, it's just there, because it has to.

And I am done with a mobile device till a true Linux based mobile become available.

This is so rubbish.

I used to be an Android dev, and occasionally dabble.

I use Android as I can put things on it.

If its going to be closed, I may as well get an iPhone, or stick with open and get a Linux phone next.

This is great… for web apps.

I really hope this will be the final straw to break the camel’s back and people will see that native platforms bring nothing but lock in and misery (I’m an Android native developer, don’t bother telling me about “native experience”).

At this point, the only reason I have an Android phone is GrapheneOS. Fortunately it is not impacted by this. The day Google manages to make GrapheneOS unusable, I'm off to the iPhone.
My daughter wants me to read the Ada & Zangemann book as a bed time lecture [1]. I don't know if she feels how relevant this topic has become.

[1] https://fsfe.org/activities/ada-zangemann/index.en.html

Honestly, for people who value privacy and security: What exactly is the plan?

It seems like we're going from a reasonably acceptable option (GrapheneOS), to nothing.

As long as any old apk can be installed over ADB, f-droid just needs to release a desktop app, and I'm gtg. Yeah, it's a little inconvenient, and hopefully just a stopgap until Linux phones are viable, but still better than Apple.
What happens to hobby android app development when this comes into effect?

You can't even test stuff you made on your own hardware without getting verified.

If functionality is taken away from a device, e.g. this, locking down bootloaders etc the consumer should have the right to a refund.
It's not like Android and iOS are the only options exactly.

So I never spend much on phones, but I just got a Fairphone 4 running E/OS , which is .... like running android, except it blocks tracking by default, and you're in control. Some fairphones come with e/os pre-installed, but installing it isn't even all too fiddly, you can do it direct from chrome(ium).

And you can take it apart with your fingers and a screwdriver!

There's hope yet!

Wouldn't be possible to just install an alternative Android build that has this removed?
ubuntu linux phone, as soon as I have a few bucks and a day off, as my daily driver is exclusivly side loaded and I will feel a bit better knowing how the next thing works
Once again.

There is no future for "general purpose computing". The market won't sustain it. The future of computing is a signed, vetted path from boot firmware to application code. Everyone benefits from this, except devs.

Platform vendors benefit because they can collect license fees and exert control over the platform. Control is not necessarily evil; it also allows the hardware vendor to manage their reputation. People tend to blame the vendor when malware, or just poorly written software, makes things go awry; look at the flak Microsoft caught from poorly written third-party drivers causing Windows crashes back in the day.

Content and service providers benefit because the locked down platform provides reasonable assurance against compromise—hacked bank accounts, piracy, etc. which can result in losses.

End users benefit because now their computer or smartphone is as convenient and risk-free as a game console. iPhone is still the #1 brand in the US, despite being almost completely closed. NOBODY in the end user market gives a shit about being able to run arbitrary software. They would rather have safety, and iPhone gives them that.

Governments benefit because if app development requires a paper trail, app and smartphone vendors can be more easily strongarmed for law enforcement and surveillance purposes. Governments are requiring increased tracking by online services, including age verification laws in the US, UK, and elsewhere; "chat control" proposals in Europe, etc. Some governments (e.g., Brazil) are even implementing these requirements on end-user devices and operating systems. We are going to be living in a digital world that's more regulated, transparent to government, and accountable soon.

My advice is: get used to it. The free-wheeling hacker days are over, and they're not coming back. No one is going to listen to a bunch of nerds whinging that their toys have been taken away; those nerds will be told that it's time to grow up.

I recently put my finger on what has been changing lately, especially after the assassination:

We used to say, that online speech, is not the same as in-person speech.

Online, you can yell horrible things, imply that somebody should "do something" about another person, but police showing up at your door is a tyranny, even if those same things on a street corner would've had you on involuntary commitment. Online, a developer might build an app that pulls off phishing scams, but they have the complete right to be anonymous. Meanwhile, the person cutting your hair, preparing your food, or even selling you flowers needs registration, if only for taxes. In person was a "real" threat, while online was just "venting," "trolling."

That's dying. Online is now the real world. With real world consequences.

Google, your platform currently does not inspire any privacy. It has no ecosystem going for it (workarounds do not count, I want Apple levels everything-works-together-100%-out-of-the-box). Your Watch and other products have repeatedly been called lukewarm, and the Fitbit integration with Google integration was the last straw that pushed me off your watch platform.

If you want me to buy an iOS clone with no competitive edges, I would rather stick with the real deal. At least Apple has been consistent with their views about what iOS is since day 1.

I really don't like this move. I always rooted for Android because of its openness. It was also a reason why I was proud to work at Google.

The PlayStore is full of crapware, and I'm using a lot of apps from Fdroid, including basics like keyboard and text.

If you're at Google try to push back on this please.