Item — HN Reader

> Over a period of ~8 months, they were subjected to like 4 different levels of restriction over here, culminating in them only being provided by pharmacies to prescription holders.

Can you explain what do you think is wrong with that?

> An entire cottage industry of compliant vape selling businesses were forced to close, and significant numbers of users have been deprived access to the commodity.

What a questionable assertion. Your whole argument is that businesses that were not compliant had to close, but somehow you chose to frame them as compliant?

And exactly what "commodities" do you think the public is being deprived of? Hazardous noncompliant vape pens that pose a health risk? That's hardly something anyone would complain about.

> Regulation forces the non prescription having user to the black market where no safety or quality checks are conducted.

No, not really. Anyone can stroll into any store that sells them and buy a compliant vape pen.

Your argument is even comical, in the way that you opted to complain about regulation somehow causing the problem of people selling hazardous products that don't comply with regulation. I mean, do you expect all products to magically comply with regulation after that ceases to be enforced? Schrodinger's regulation!

The main problem with laissez-faire fundamentalists is their incoherence driven by despair.

2 comments

Yeah, this whole argument sounds a lot like

company> These regulations are preventing us from selling our product

government> We have a set of standards that your type of product must meet; because we believe not meeting them is dangerous to society.

company> But, our products don't meet those standards, and we can't sell them... and since selling them is what our business plan is, we're going to go out of business

government> And? I'm not seeing the problem here.

It is part of government's job to decide what is safe for society and, where something isn't safe, decide if the harm in preventing it outweighs the good in doing so.

>It is part of government's job to decide what is safe for society and, where something isn't safe, decide if the harm in preventing it outweighs the good in doing so.

And they are quite often very wrong, trying to be seen to be acting rather than making considered changes.

That's an argument to do better, not to avoid doing at all.

That's a pretty disingenuous interpretation. It's a lot more like:

Company > we are selling something that's legal.

Government > well now you have to do X. (Testing? Certification? Reporting?)

Company > why? X industry doesn't have this reg. Europe/ the next state over doesn't have this reg?

Government> because I'm the government and its my job

Company > fine

Repeat 4x.

> Company, um we did they last 4 things you asked us to and if we have to do the next we are going to go out of business.

> Gov: get fucked, I'm just doing my job: read [I have an ideological problem with your business, my buddy is in the business and I'm giving him an exception, and/or I've got a special interest group to please].

>Public: cheers

>Public: Why is their a housing shortage? Why is our manufacturing less competitive than China? Why do we need to import rare earths?

>Your whole argument is that businesses that were not compliant had to close, but somehow you chose to frame them as compliant?

Businesses that were compliant with rounds 1, 2 and 3 of regulation still got kicked out with number 4, because the regulation denoted them as businesses that aren't allowed to sell vapes. They did nothing morally wrong and harmed no one, and invested time and money in compliance with earlier regulation.

>On 1 July 2024, the Therapeutic Goods and Other Legislation Amendment (Vaping Reforms) Act 2024 (Commonwealth vaping reforms) came into effect. Therapeutic vapes (which include nicotine and zero-nicotine vapes) are only available in pharmacies for the purposes of smoking cessation or managing nicotine dependence. It is illegal for any other retailer— including tobacconists, vape shops and convenience stores—to sell any type of vaping goods

I wont bore you with the details of the restrictions pharmacies impose for access to vapes, but rest assured, the effect is a prescription is required for 0 tobacco vapes.

And its worth mentioning, this was the compromise position, where the government was pushing for a total ban.

>And exactly what "commodities" do you think the public is being deprived of?

Previously compliant vapes that are now only permitted via prescription.

>Hazardous noncompliant vape pens that pose a health risk? That's hardly something anyone would complain about.

Dubious risk that is so far completely unsubstantiated. We regulate tobacco cigarettes to a lower degree. You can enjoy aerosolised burning tar in your lungs far easier than a simple vape. There is no justification for restricting something less harmful, to a greater degree. None.

>No, not really. Anyone can stroll into any store that sells them and buy a compliant vape pen.

You really dont engage with anyone in good faith do you.

>Your argument is even comical, in the way that you opted to complain about regulation somehow causing the problem of people selling hazardous products that don't comply with regulation. I mean, do you expect all products to magically comply with regulation after that ceases to be enforced? Schrodinger's regulation!

You make the same logical fallacy, that something is hazardous because it is regulated. When they specifically did not have any evidence to base their later rounds of regulation on. Its based on an assumption, that vaping might be harmful, after having already removed products from shelves that were shown to be (ever so slightly) harmful. That is, they removed the bad stuff, then removed the unknown without justification. My point again is that you need more than a reason, you need continual ongoing justification.

We have literally had an increase in violent crime associated with the vape ban. Black market vapes are completely unregulated (often including the banned juices that were largely complied with). I dont see why you have a problem with that. This is not a binary. You arent being asked to believe in a 100% regulation free utopia. Just to abandon your weird, and completely unsubstantiated starting position that there cannot be negative impacts from regulation. If I wanted to be an a*hole I would have started with the war on drugs. Not a weird little street level mirror of it that's part of my lived experience.

>https://colinmendelsohn.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/Th...

>Australia’s ‘de facto’ prohibition of vapes has helped create a thriving and highly profitable black market controlled by the same criminal networks that import illicit tobacco. These criminal gangs are engaged in an escalating turf war to gain market share, with firebombing of tobacco shops and public executions.

Will just point out that firebombing and public executions are also banned. I am not trying to get them unbanned. But they occur anyway.

>The main problem with laissez-faire fundamentalists is their incoherence driven by despair.

What a weird thing to say, that unfounded smothering arrogance again.