▲ 586 points

Firefox will have an option to disable all AI features

mastodon.social

by twapi·8mo ago·546 comments·view on hn ↗

546 comments

I think people screaming "but AI is the future" doesn't recognize what the problem is. The problem is not AI. The problem is that Mozilla keeps jumping on fads instead of focusing on their browser core. There are a tons of "we bundled all the latest crap" Chrome forks out there. Nobody needs more those. Stop pushing bells and whistles. Give us more extensibility instead. Keep supporting v2 manifest and add more. There were genuine technical reasons for why XUL and NPAPI had to die, but we need an equally powerful alternative.

And yea, having a faint through about removing adblock support, yet alone speaking it aloud is a really bad sign for Mozilla's future.

I am waiting for a serious fork of Mozilla to emerge at this point that pays the maintainers better in a bid to overtake Mozilla itself. People would donate to get a better browser, people dont donate because Mozilla wastes all their donor funds on nonsense.

> The problem is that Mozilla keeps jumping on fads instead of focusing on their browser core.

They always did, everyone does. This is not really new, and not really that harmful in itself. The deeper problem is that you need developers who are also understanding what they are doing, what people want and need, developers who are nerdy about some topic and very deep into their understanding of it. But Mozilla seems to lack this, which is also why they have to follow every fad blindly, because they just don't know it better, have no real vision and understanding which enables them to build something really worthful. Mozilla seems to be the embodiment of what happens when you have a task and your solution is to just throw money at it until something works.

And let's be fair, it is easy to be good at something, but really hard to master it and dominate the world. It's not really their fault, they are probably doing their best, they just don't know it better, and so does everyone, including fans if we are honest. Everyone has their own preferences and goals, and often they are conflicting with each other. Mozilla has to find a common ground to server as much people as possible, and IMHO they are still good at this. Firefox used to be so much worse on some aspects, Chrome and other Browser are still worse on other aspects. Getting the perfect Browser is just not realistic.

> Give us more extensibility instead.

True, it's really a joke how many of their promised APIs never were finished after they killed XUL.

> Keep supporting v2 manifest and add more.

Didn't they say they will continue with Manifest v2?

> There were genuine technical reasons for why XUL and NPAPI had to die, but we need an equally powerful alternative.

Wasn't NPAPI mostly replaced with HTML5? Most stuff done with Flash or Java-Applets is now possible out of the box. Or is something missing?

It might open up for a terrifying level of abuse, but if you can have Dtrace and eBPF implemented in the Linux kernel, you can surely design an API for allowing AIs to be plug-able within Firefox.

Firefox is already a really good browser, Mozilla really should be focusing on that. They can design and implement an AI plugin system to go into that core. People who want AI can install an agent and enable the AI sub-system. If the AI companies won't implement it, Mozilla can do it and charge a fee for the plugin.

Every browser developer should be forced to take an annual pilgrimage to this gravestone:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flock_(web_browser)

5 step plan for Mozilla to succeed against the Behemoth Googzilla and the leviathans of MAWS.

1. build a team in Europe to create an email service comparable to gmail/protonmail

- domains: mozmail.com, mmail.com, godmail.com, pmail.com, dogmail.com, meowmail.com

- promoted as a simple everyday email – no overly complicated/advanced federati features in order to increase inter-operability, reduce spam and dealing with federalism

- for more advanced features, integration links with something like signal, or a hosted comms platform

2. invest heavily in Firefox core development and service features

- push for system resource and performance optimizations, even if it requires extensive architectural changes

- focus on perfecting a core browser experience then developing an extension API that allows a level of UI customisations that XUL did, have unsafe/hackers warning for any extension that uses this API, even official ones

- invest in KeePassXC ux and integrate it as a first class and core feature in Firefox that is useable by hackers, consumers and enterprises – offer paid services for simple database sync/backup, as well as a decent managed solution for enterprise.

3. Expand further with a suite of other services that have both self-hosted and paid management extras

- calendar and email client, universally usable between providers, but first class with Firefox and mmail.

- integrate something like libreoffice into a desktop client that can also be embedded into a Firefox tab.

- straight forward self-hostable teams communication platform, managed cloud versions also availabe

- self-hosted / managed file storage platform with web UI with integration links to other services

- all of the above require a unified web, desktop and mobile ux

- offer further software and hardware integrations to completely streamline personal digital management

4. Extensive marketing and brand exposure over TV and social media, while staying charitably non-profit and recognizing the digital roots

- Use the firefox, gecko and other digital animals as icons

- Themes and scapes from origins such as mosaic/netscape

5. In this scene Mozilla continues knocking down the buildings of the titans.

Ok so walk me through how _only_ focusing on the browser core will make them money other than continuing to be dependent on Google. How can they diversify their revenue streams?

I agree they should make the browser core good, but right now they are entirely dependent on their biggest competitor.

> There are a tons of "we bundled all the latest crap" Chrome forks out there. Nobody needs more those.

And it's fine if they want to compete in that space, but they don't even seem to have the drive or desire to excel there.

To this day, I'm surprised that chromium powers electron and firefox hasn't released a compelling alternative.

> people screaming "but AI is the future"

I witnes far more people screaming against AI.

The media started kicking this off in 2021, 2022. It blossomed into a fully distributed, organic, memetic device from there. It has a life of its own now.

Children and young people are practically indoctrinated if you look at social media comments.

I was invited to give lectures to several art schools about using Blender, Unreal Engine, and mocap software with diffusion models. The students weren't very polite. Most of the "questions" I got at each of the campuses were simply statements of affirmation about how much they hate AI.

Good looking and well-reviewed indie games that incorporate AI elements or tools are dumped on by these folks. It's like butting into conversations to say something bad about AI scores points or something.

> Mozilla keeps jumping on fads

Agreed on this point, though. They're rudderless. And Google is probably quite happy about the fact that their antitrust litigation sponge can't steal away their users.

I just force quit Firefox because it was slowing the macbook with loads of memory use for nothing much running. On with Chrome... They should that sort of thing?

I'm going to chime in here, I think 1. This is great and Mozilla is listening to it's core fans and 2. I want Firefox to be a competitive browser. Without AI enabled features + agent mode being first class citizens, this will be a non-starter in 2 years.

I want my non-tech family members/friends to install Firefox not because I come over at Christmas, but because they want to. Because it's a browser that "just works." We can't have this if Firefox stays in the pre-ai era.

I know Mozilla doesn't have much good will right now, but hopefully with the exec shakeup, they will right the ship on making FF a great browser. While still staying the best foil to Chrome (both in browser engine, browser chrome, and extension ecosystem).

Of all the AI features added recently, local translations is one that I would be OK with being enabled by default. It's useful, and its value proposition is much less dubious.

I'm glad to see some mozilla employees standing their base in the comments. That guy trying to make the point that Mozilla was wasting resources chasing trend only for an employee to say it was a few people checking it out while 1000 people continued work on the normal stuff is nice to see.

The non mozilla people in that thread are so petty. Maybe it'd be better to have them go use another browser and stop dragging down firefox's reputation.

This feels less like an “anti-AI” stance and more like a trust and control issue. For browsers especially, users have very different threat models and performance expectations, and “always on” AI features blur that line quickly. An explicit opt-out makes sense, but I wonder if the more important question is whether these features can be implemented in a way that’s truly local and auditable. If users can’t clearly understand where data goes and what runs on-device, toggles become a necessary safety valve rather than a preference.

This is exactly the kind of boring, unsexy feature that actually builds trust. It’s the opposite of the usual “surprise, here’s an AI sidebar you didn’t ask for and can’t fully disable” pattern. If they want people to try this stuff, the path is pretty simple: ship a browser that treats AI like any other power feature. Off by default, clearly explained, reversible, and preferably shippable as an extension. You can always market your way into more usage; you can’t market your way back into credibility once you blow it.

Firefox should release a separate build - "base", "core", "classic" - clearly, I am not a marketing person, but idea behind it, that this is only a browser without any extra features added. No "AI", no studies, no account sync. Only bare minimum browser, that allows user to do their internet things and, if they ever desire, will install all extra bells and whistles as extensions. No need to agree to any EULA either (remember, that it was added to Firefox?). And, the best part, all existing users will still keep using the same old Firefox version, no surprises for them. Now, I assume that someone will tell me, that this version already exists and is called ESR :)

Average Joe or Joan will install some crap AI assisted browser if some idiot in Tiktok or FB says follow me and I will DM you a special link to get baby-clothes for -10% discount. Hope your family is not that. My spouse despite reading HN etc thinks that anyway privacy is lost - so why notget at least that 10% discount.

Another problem for Mozilla:

- If they don't pivot to AI people will leave it. Yes, some hardcore RMS fans will use some clone of Firefox - all others will not

- If they adopt modern AI people scream

- Same happened when Mozilla accepted DRM (for Netflix etc). Many tech writers, commentators were against that. But if Firefox did not adopt it then all those tech writers would have used Chrome to see Netflix. No one of these commentators say they will boycott Netflix.

Why not make them disabled by default, with the option to turn them on?

Have it as a stand alone plugin.

I should have to manually install this AI stuff.

Mullvad browser doesn't have an option to disable all AI features because it doesn't have any.

(The Mullvad guys took Tor browser for its resistance to fingerprinting and removed the connection the Tor network. You don't need Mullvad VPN to use the browser)

https://mullvad.net/en/browser

I still don't want to use an "AI browser". I don't want to use a browser where all or most development effort goes into "AI features" that I need to disable. I want a browser where the development effort goes into making it better at browsing the web.

Is there a fork of firefox where you have all the same core functionality and support for extensions but with all the mozilla services (pocket, safe browsing, forced crap on the new tab page, any AI service, etc...) removed?

Could someone summarize the problem with Firefox's AI features?

At least when I last checked (months ago), none of those features that involve communicating with external servers would work unless you configure them to (i.e. provide credentials to an LLM provider).

Was I wrong? Have things changed?

I actually saw the “summarize this page” feature in the right-click menu today and clicked on it out of curiosity. The box that appeared had a “remove AI features” button which I accidentally clicked. Now the feature is completely gone and I don't know how to get it back. (Don't really care much, wasn't planning on using that feature anyway, just giving feedback on my first impression)

I can't imagine any reasonable use case for having AI tightly integrated into a browser (or an operating system, for what it's worth). Why not make a browser plugin or a web page or an app? I don't get it.

It should be a plugin. Anything that isn't directly related to the core mission of a web browser should be a plugin.

How about we don't enable AI features by default in the first place?

If they want to position themselves with a point of difference from competitors, they could provide a settings list of AI features with check boxes for each.

This would tap into the insight that not everyone dislikes the same AI features. For many AI isn't a dirty word, but rather they've seen plenty of examples where it's simply annoying or over-taxing resources.

For example some like AI to build a quick reference summary from a set of web results, but don’t want a full agenic-style AI to extend beyond that.

This could potentially entice users not to throw the baby out with the bathwater, and maybe even make a few converts.

Doesn't matter?

https://youtube.com/shorts/FObvkFtr2ZU?si=U6fCphjmGcNMb5ac

Until they change this back they are not trustworthy at all.

I think Firefox is an excellent browser. Their problem is simply that they have too much revenue for too many years. They need a fraction of that. If I were the ceo, I would drastically cut back operations. Scale down the org to 10% of its current strength, keep shipping a solid and boring browser, accept donations that directly support development of the browser. No fads, no ai, just a high performance, bug free, standards compliant browser. The users and donations will come. Firefox will survive. One year of google revenue can kar them for 10 years of lean operation!

Internet economy already made a full circle with this once before: at first, ads existed to sell things online for advertisers, and make money for publishers (also as a machine for circular deals to propel stock valuations, during the dotcom boom). Then they became so pervasive and annoying that eventually they just became a method of making user experience worse, and get paid for ad-free, thus making money. Today, no one cares about performance of those ads, they are just a replacement of "nag screens" of the shareware era.

It sounds like AI will made this circle a lot faster.

I'll never understand why people feel so strongly about features like this and that they have to be opt-in.

I don't use bookmarks. Should those be opt-in? What about the other 85% of the browser's features I don't use?

I hope Zen disables this by default, or completely removes it if that’s an option.

Firefox had options for many things, until those options were removed

I'm not sure why people still believe this, especially developers. We're starting to literally just build AI into everything... you're not even going to know what's AI and what's not. The phase of labeling everything with cute little sparkles is starting to end and AI is going to be used similarly to external libraries.

If you don't like AI you need to seek legislation and pressure your local politicians. It's the only way to stop it.

I don't really care so much about that. I worry more about the CEO speaking about blocking adblockers like it's a normal business decision. Wtf