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by jjmarr·7mo ago·view on hn ↗
Standard Polymarket legalese for invasions requires the goal of indefinite "control of territory" for this reason.

Raids don't qualify.

This issue already happened with the war in the Middle East when Israel engaged in cross border raids that weren't intended to establish permanent control.

3 comments
The US didn't kill all Iraqis, so it was just a "limited" military action or "raid" also? The intent was a nation removing the head of another nation to cede control of the nation to the invading nation. If you kill 1 or 100,000, it's still an invasion.

If a nation assassinates a leader, then leave the country to their own devices (which may include a more friendly replacement), I could see the ground on this logic. NEITHER of these events (killing nor elected replacement) has happened. The US has asserted control.

In Iraq the US entered with a force numbering in the hundreds of thousands and occupied the country for years. That's what makes it an invasion, not whether the leader was the target. The US didn't remove Saddam Hussein when they attacked in 1991 and that was still, beyond any doubt, an invasion.
"Control" refers to military occupation of territory. Boots on the ground.

No part of Venezuela (referring to its sovereign territory) was indefinitely occupied by the USA. That's why the market is "No" right now.

The number of dead people isn't relevant here.

Polymarket rules sometimes diverge from what you might consider an "invasion", but those are the pre-agreed upon and standardized rules.

The US has asserted control with words and threats, not with sustained military presence or a successor not approved by the previous Venezuelan administration. The Venezuelan military has full control of its territory, and leadership has passed to the next in line to the Venezuelan presidency who even Trump acknowledges needs to be negotiated with to get the oil he wants, and is busy telling her own domestic audience Maduro is still her president.

It's obviously far closer to assassinating a leader and leaving the country to its own devices than the complete destruction of the Iraqi army as a viable fighting force, installation of an entirely new government and extended military occupation, or even something like Russia's ultimately unsuccessful annexation of Kherson.

So if you enter a country using a military force and arrest the president quickly enough, it's not an invasion?

How slowly would it need to be done to be counted as an invasion? A day? A month?

There's certainly a fuzzy line there somewhere, but the Maduro raid is clearly on the non-invasion side of it. This operation was much more similar to the Bin Laden raid than to even the smallest operation that could be considered an invasion.
Intent is important here. It’s an invasion if the objective is to establish sustained military control over some portion of the country’s territory.

But if the intention is some other military objective: blow up a military base, kidnap a president, etc, and get out quickly, then I don’t think the word “invasion” applies.

I have no idea who has decided that "invade" means "establish sustained military control".

With certainty that is not the original meaning of the word. In Latin and in classic English, the meaning of the word is just: "enter in a hostile manner", as it can be verified in any dictionary.

As long as foreigners have entered the territory of another country by force, that is an invasion.

It does not matter which was the duration of the invasion or whether the intent of the invasion was to stay there permanently.

An invasion may be followed, or not, by a military occupation, which is "establish sustained military control".

The real answer is that the people that set up the bet decided, and they listed the conditions upfront.

And imagine how silly it would be if 1-5 soldiers came across the border by force and left a few minutes later and that counted as a major world event!

> ”I have no idea who has decided that "invade" means "establish sustained military control".”

Oxford Languages, for one, who provide the definition used by Google:

invade /ɪnˈveɪd/ verb

(of an armed force) enter (a country or region) so as to subjugate or occupy it.

Compared to other dictionaries, this is a very poor explanation of the word.

Nevertheless, even here it says clearly that "invade" refers only to "enter", and neither to "subjugate" or to "occupy".

Other dictionaries explain better the distinction between "invading" and normal "entering", which is in the manner how one enters, i.e. "in a hostile manner" or "by the use of force".

Your dictionary explains the distinction by intent, not by manner, but this is wrong, as at the time of the invasion one cannot know which is the intent, which will become known only in the future.

By this definition one could never recognize an invasion while it happens, even when one sees a foreign army entering and killing everyone on sight.

I agree however, that the Polymarket bet has specified that the object of the bet was an invasion followed by an occupation of the territory, so the conditions of the bet have not been met.

So then by your definition, Mexican drug cartels have invaded the US, right?
If you sent in a small strike force they could probably stay there indefinitely without qualifying.
The relevant definition is already posted upthread...
> The US has asserted control with words and threats, not with sustained military presence

The presence is global. The threat is the same as anyone taking over another country. This is some serious hair splitting.

The presence is not in Venezuela. Sure, they can threaten Venezuela's new president, just like they can (and do) threaten other countries that they have not invaded [recently] and having a powerful military not in Venezuela adds a certain credibility to those threats, but that doesn't change the fact its the successor under the Maduro administration's rules, not theirs, and she's able to publicly insist that Maduro still the president! The threats of dire consequences if she doesn't do what they want are precisely because they don't control the country.

It's really not "serious hair splitting" to point out that they haven't "invaded" a country they haven't even attempted to maintain non-covert presence in, particularly not when you've conveniently provided the perfect analogy of a state assassinating a leader and then letting them pick a successor who might be more convenient.

What is the difference between having the militaire have boots in the ground to kill you if you don't comply, and having military in the border next to you to kill you, bomb you or kidnap you if you don't comply?
One involves an invasion having already occured and the other doesn't. Making this distinction is literally the subject of the entire thread.
USA is not meaningfully in control of Venezuela. They have no more control then a week ago.

Venezuela regime did not changed either. The same generals and politicials remain on power, altrough there is bound to be some power struggle between them.

If threats and global military presence count as invasion then the US has invaded a lot of countries lately, and I don't think that's right.
Where do I find that standard legalese on Polymarket? https://polymarket.com/event/will-the-us-invade-venezuela-in... only shows some "additional context" added after the fact.

Edit: I see now that you have to select one of the possible dates, scroll down to the rules section, and then expand it.

yeah but the difference is with Israel, they didn't literally take a foreign country's leader hostage and extract him out of the country.