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by yomismoaqui·7mo ago·view on hn ↗
Motivation is fleeting but routine persists.

When there is something that you want to do regularly (exercise, doing the final boring part of some sideproject, cleaning the house...) you remove willpower from the equation and set a day and a time.

For example, everyday from 18 to 19 I work on my sideprojects, or saturdays from 16 to 18 is house cleaning time. There is no question if I want to do it, it is set at that time and I have to do it, period.

The nice thing about routine is that the first times it is hard, but after some repetitions your mind (and body) begin to get used and it transforms into a routine and then it's like it's written in stone. That time period of that day X is for Y and it is what it is.

Routine can be used for bad things but also for good things.

19 comments
> There is no question if I want to do it, it is set at that time and I have to do it, period.

Gosh it must be nice to have at least an ordinary amount of executive function skills. Is it really this easy for neurotypical people to build routines? That's really all it takes?

I don't see how this removes willpower at all. It just determines what time you have to use it.

All you need to do is go to sleep before 12 every single night and wake up at 7am without fail, hit the gym and crank out a few sets of squats, hit the pool and the sauna, read a chapter of that book, and then cook yourself an amazing breakfast, all before 9am.

If you're a real go-getter, though, you'd wake up at 6am and do some vibe coding for an hour on that side hustle.

Super simple.

This but unironically. I don't post on LinkedIn or anything. But sometimes it seems like all the agonizing people sometimes do over whether or not they should follow their plan (fitness, diet, productivity) makes it ten times worse.

It can be possible to decide to do something in advance, and then... just do it. The more times you do it the easier it gets. My wife comments on this sometimes. I guess not everyone has this? Maybe it can be learned? I don't know.

Don't forget to spend a few minutes journalling self-affirmations.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_o7qjN3KF8U

I know you’re being smart but these things are all possible if you want to make them happen
Agreed, and then I just jump back in time two hours so that I can get to work on time, because that is what successful people do.
and not have any kids.
It still requires willpower, but to use a metaphor, it's much easier to travel down a well-trod path than it is to cut a new path through the jungle. Repetition and consistency establishes the path, so the willpower required to travel down it the next day is reduced over time. Establishing a pre-set time and committing to that time ahead of time removes the "will I or won't I" decision at "go time", when you're most likely to falter.
What makes this “neurotypical?” I don’t necessarily consider myself as such, but I’ve made it a point to have some routine in my life. In fact, I think being highly regimented and sticking to a routine can be very neuroatypical. I would never go so far as to say I’m autistic, but there are markers on that spectrum, like becoming upset when a routine is disrupted. I certainly am perturbed when I’ve set some routine for myself and something interrupts it.
I'm not claiming this works for everyone but what sometimes work for me to form a routine is to do the thing but without committing effort to it. I.e. go to the gym but you only promise yourself to go there, not actually spend effort there. Any actual exercise you then do is a bonus, not a "payment on your promise".

I think it can be generalized as:

Find the thing to do that doesn't require much effort but puts you in the context of doing the effortful thing. Do that thing. See if you "want" to do the effortful thing. Otherwise go home.

Cleaning? Put the vacuum in your hands and see if something happens.

At least I think that's how it works for me.

The points when it's hardest to make it work is when there's lots of distractions. Like when you try to get into a routine of doing work at a computer.

The parent comment's point is that you can reduce the amount of executive function required to do the correct thing. Doing something at the same time every day will indeed make it more automatic, requiring less willpower to do it again tomorrow. This effect applies whether you're neurotypical or not and is grounded in behavioral research.

There are better examples in my opinion than just doing something at 18:00 every day. There's a technique called habit stacking where you identify all the habits you already have at a given time (like when you first wake up), and then you add one more at the end. It's easier to introduce a new habit this way, and it becomes ingrained more quickly, resulting in less need to use executive function.

There are still more techniques. An example from my personal life: in my whole adult life, I've never gone to the gym... unless I sign up for a gym that's right across the street from my workplace. Then it happens like clockwork. If all I need to do is walk across the street, I end up in the gym, and inevitably, I work out. If I need to drive 20 minutes though, well my willpower just ain't that great, so it basically never happens.

The best book I've read on this topic is Atomic Habits by James Clear. He goes deep down the rabbit hole of these techniques you can employ and touches on the research it's all based on. The brain's not a computer so I mean it's not all just going to come together automatically, but in my experience this stuff does work.

Willpower is what you use when you’re allowed choice and know you should make the good choice but actually feel like choosing the bad choice. The trick to good discipline is to never allow it to be a choice. There are no excuses. There is no negotiation. It just is the same way the sun rises or the tax man comes. Good discipline is a skill you develop and it is far easier than trying to live via something as temperamental as willpower.
I have utterly horrible executive function. Diagnosed and everything. Sitting here on HN right now avoiding boring spreadsheet work to finish my day out.

It’s not easy for anyone to develop these style of habits and routines. It’s just hard mode and takes much more effort for folks with executive dysfunction.

The first rule is choose one thing and stick to it. With realistic goals. Mine was: I am going to walk at least 6,000 steps a day. No matter what. Zero excuses.

Since schedules are insanely difficult for me I set none. If I remembered I still needed to walk and I could do it in the moment I simply prioritized it. It’s surprisingly easy to fit in 10 minutes of walk in throughout your day, even when working a desk job. It could simply mean pacing while on conference calls.

Another rule was “if I fail to achieve it one day, I must achieve it the next” to avoid the “all or nothing” mental trap.

This was to the level of getting into bed, checking step counter, and if I was under target literally getting out of bed, putting clothes back on, and walking until I hit it. I had all sorts of technical widgets to enforce this and help remind me.

It totally sucked for the first couple months. Then it started to just become a thing. Then I ramped it up to 12k/day until I hit a weight goal.

It’s the best thing I ever did for my mental health since it started a snowball in other areas of my life. I was able to swap out a few days of steps for an hour workout (beginning with a personal trainer to force me to show up 2 days a week minimum). I was and still am constantly 10 minutes late to my session but no matter what I show up to them.

The weeks I miss them due to schedule conflicts or travel I feel much worse mentally. And it’s easy to give into the anxiety and panic over not having enough time in the day to fit it in after procrastinating on other items. You also start to realize that those other items are probably not as important as you thought.

I find routine and habits over schedule and calendaring are hyper-important for my dysfunction and have leaned into that. It’s more of a “this thing before that thing” sort of deal vs “at 3pm I do the thing” since the latter would go off the rails immediately.

It’s possible. Just the hardest thing I’ve maybe ever accomplished in life so far.

Gonna be different for everyone and you probably need that one moment of clarity to get the initial motivation. The motivation will go away, but the habits and discipline will probably stick around.

Been using this same method to build habits and routine into other areas of my life now as well.

Your daily reminder that neurotypical people do not exist.
I found this to be true, and that it perfectly dovetailed with TFA.

When I was at my absolute depth (so far…) back in 2013, I would see my counsellor at 1130 on a Saturday. I’d be able to recount the darkness of the previous 7 days in stark vivid detail, yet cheerfully and not feeling at all depressed in the moment. The counsellor asked what I did on Saturday morning except the session and my answer was, well I do Parkrun[0] of course. I always do Parkrun. It’s in my calendar, it’s not really negotiable. It might have been the only time I managed to get out of bed all week, but, I mean, how can I possibly skip Parkrun?

I never actually linked the exercise to the boost in my mental health until I had it pointed out to me at that moment. I go for a run and I feel better because of the run. I would spend the whole 5km stewing and ruminating and maybe in tears but half hour after getting home I could function! it’s stuck with me ever since, and I’ve never (yet) been so down again.

Tomorrow will be my 429th Parkrun :)

[0] https://www.parkrun.com/

That's amazing! I'm so glad for you that you found something that works and which can keep you going!
This reads like an ad. Why would you capitalize it like a product name and then even link to the website?

I still have no idea what it really is. From the name I'd think you're going for a run at a local park. The website calls it a "5k and 2k community event", what that's supposed to mean I have no clue. It insists you either "join" or "volunteer", all while being as non-specific as possible why I should even care

2/5k what? people? distance? currency? number of events? It almost reads like in-group speak of a cult I don't partake in.

-- Rant over --

> saturdays from 16 to 18 is house cleaning time.

> Routine can be used for bad things but also for good things.

So your willpower causes such routines to work. Not everyone works that way. And not everyone not working that way has depression. I don't think one can generalise this to "routines will fix your depression".

> but after some repetitions your mind (and body) begin to get used

I also don't buy into that. A good counter-example is tobacco smokers. Some manage to quit the moment they decide they want to quit, with no substitutes. Others try with substitute and interestingly for many who try, that also works, but for some it does not. And some can barely ever quit smoking. And a lot of this has to do with how their brain works.

Matthew Perry spoke about that with regard to his alcohol addiction. People are different. I personally never started with smoking, for instance, because I never trusted myself to be able to (want to) quit again - so at the least I was consistent in this regard (plus also, because in our youth, so many others started to smoke suddenly, and I always felt it was a very stupid reason to smoke merely because others would do so, even at an early age. Their rationales would not be mine and I failed to see the point in adopting their positions and make them my position).

I bet simply having a dog needing walking tips the scales into an exercise routine at some level.
It did for me. You have to be truly heartless to see a dog being sad about not going outside. So you take it for a walk, then another and another. Soon enough you're researching hiking trails in your region and getting healthier.

Dogs are the best.

God yeah. So much healthier and happier in my forties than my thirties, and it's all down to my executive assistant.
yes and then dog dies so you go back into a depression :(
> Motivation is fleeting but routine persists.

Ahnold Schwarzenegger said that the gains in an exercise program happen when you really don't want to do it, but do it anyway.

>Motivation is fleeting but routine persists. When there is something that you want to do regularly (exercise, doing the final boring part of some sideproject, cleaning the house...) you remove willpower from the equation and set a day and a time.

Absolutely!! Don't wait to Feel Like It, or Be Motivated... and especially do not depend on another person/trainer/weather to motivate you!

Fitness is a to-do, like laundry or grocery shopping or going to work. Now where the nuance comes in is finding what you enjoy. But a nuance of this nuance is, you don't know what you like until you have done it for a while, at least one month. Don't do boot camps or hacky gimmicky things people try to trick themselves into doing.

For a while I was deep into photography and writing. In both, I read and listened to people who were experts - successful writers and photographers. I learned this - they don't wait for inspiration. They commit X time per day to doing their craft, as habit.

I write this after coming from the gym, on a chilly night, after a relatively annoying day, and I feel 80 percent better.

Now the joint soreness and constant tightness are a problem, cuz I'm getting older. But it must be done.

An easier routine for me to manage house cleaning is to set up a calendar with one little chore each day.

List out what needs to be done every week, every month, every season, and set them up to repeat.

Every day you do your little two minute task (clean the bathroom mirrors; vacuum a single room), so you get a little win. And they’re each so small that it never feels like you need to switch into a long “cleaning binge” that you need to dread.

The key I found was to avoid self flagellation.

Try your hardest to do each session, but if you miss a session don't try to make it up. Just get on and do a normal session the next time it falls due. You're in it for the long term, so long term it doesn't matter if you were intermittent when building the habit, or the occasional session gets missed for a reason.

I’m on this journey myself; learning to become more emotionally well-regulated, and kinder to myself. For years I had depression, and I used self-flagellation and self-loathing as drivers to motivate myself to do better. In work, hobbies, fitness, relationships…everything. I would unfairly criticize, disdain, and lash out in anger at myself, in ways I would never treat another person. My baseline emotional state skewed negative, and I’ve realized I was suppressing or dissociating from emotions entirely. It took a while to realize I wasn’t coping well. I made improvements over many years time, but sometimes still fall back into old default patterns. I finally hired a therapist to work through stuff and develop better emotional health and cognitive strategies. Started with just checking-in and recognizing emotions, and being more fair and kind to myself, which in turn helps to respond to everyday circumstances more objectively. It has helped immensely, and I don’t think I could have made the same progress without a neutral third party. I highly encourage anyone in a similar place to hire a therapist; it can be hard to find someone you meld with, but it’s worth it.
This, plus start small. Just do those 5 or 10 minutes of karate exercises per day, at a fixed time, or 5 new flashcards per day.
thats right. a year ago i decided, fuck this going to the gym randomly and not having a plan and only kind of committing. im going to do it. so i got a trainer, committed to 4 days a week, and so far ive kept that up for a year. and now, if i find myself running out of time in the day i make time for the gym. it is such a part of my routine that i simply do it without much questioning. because i know if i dont go i will no longer be able to do the things in the gym the way i do them today. i enjoy that feeling and wish to continue. i think the point of life, at least partially, is to figure out things that you enjoy that don't take from you and do them consistently.
It is really easy to have a routine when you are single and healthy in your 20s. It stops working so well later on. If you have friends, partner, kids, parents, pets, work, health issues etc. the routine is going to be challenged. If that only happens once every few months no big deal, but now that I am in my late 30s with a partner, kid, 3 pets and elderly parents. I literally have something derail my day almost every single day. Carefully planning my week would be a recipe for misery.

I think really successful people are ones that just don't give a shit, like full on narcissism. Like my dream is X, I need to do Y today. The dog is sick? My kid needs a ride? My parents need help? Not my problem I am doing Y full stop.

I’m in the same situation as you as well many other people who still workout. The trick is to remove as much friction as possible for working out and adding friction to activities that aren’t good for you. For example, if you don’t have time for the gym, make it easier to workout at home, make working out the very first thing you do when you wake up, etc…
Routines tend to get more and more derailed as the day goes on. Wake up early and get the important stuff done first.

As for narcissism, the optimal amount is not zero. If you want to continue being of value to your family over the long term then sometimes you have to take care of yourself first. Unless it's a life-or-death emergency, others can wait a bit for help.

I subscribe to Arnold Schwarzenegger’s newsletter, which has a surprising amount of great, well researched content.

Right after New Year’s Day, he said pretty much what you said. Discipline beats Herculean effort that’s sporadic.

Scott Adams said it a different way - systems over goals.
> Motivation is fleeting but routine persists.

That makes me think of a philosophical comic on quitting smoking. [0] Rather than cerebral willpower, a lot of value comes from indirectly shaping what your animal-brain does or doesn't encounter/expect every day.

[0] https://existentialcomics.com/comic/13

I'm not even back from work at 18-19 every day, or even most days. It varies by hours. By the time I have had dinner I'm thinking about settling down to settle my mind so that I might sleep that night. I'm also mentally exhausted after a day in my job. How do I create a habit without a time gap?
The same routine for good things can turn into being a bad thing. Brcause it can make you inflexible. So there's a trade off there.

For me, it was when I was in a situation where I had to work 80 hours a week to keep my job. I had to get rid of my routine for 8 months and I am happy I did it otherwise I would he poor today.

Being inflexible is only a problem for other people! :P
Glad that works for you, but please know if you are giving advice to individuals, that not everyone can work this way. In fact, for some people, this sort of artificial structure actually makes it harder to get the stuff done, and just makes things worse.
As someone that is unable to keep any sort of routine, I have objections here. :D Without some sort of obligating circumstance, it is incredibly easy to forego what would have otherwise been today's routine.
This 100x. I go to work because I don't want to have a long uncomfortable conversation with my boss, and because I hate interviewing, and not having income is even worse. Even at work, I often find reasons (like HN) to do actually DO work.

I've had routines at times in my life for months. And they disappear in a matter of days when I get stressed or my schedule changes or whatever.

What worked for me was a thing I started with one of my best friends, where we're accountability buddies for each other. We both pick topics/habits we wanna foster and then talk once a week about how that went the last week. In my case I chose exercise (going a certain number of times per week), and there were quite a few moments already, where I'm sure I would've just skipped if I didn't have this construct. It basically created this social obligation to keep the habit. I can really really recommend it if you wanna try it out with someone.
> Motivation is fleeting but routine persists.

This is tautological: if the action doesnt persist, it isn’t routine.

This is a great quote

>> Motivation is fleeting but routine persists.

>Motivation is fleeting but routine persists

Dude, not when we are talking about mental health problems. A semi serious mental health problem can take you out of the routine of showering, eating and brushing yoir teeth.

>There is no question if I want to do it, it is set at that time and I have to do it, period.

Again we talk about mental health here. Getting out of bed before dinner can be an impossible task. There is no "I have to do it, period". That period can cease to exist, and all you are left with is "i have to do it" over and over again without the ability to actually do it.