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Title makes it sound like you won't be able to run KDE Plasma on *BSD or minimal/obscure Linux distros, so I feel like it's worth quoting the bottom of the post for completeness sake:
> To avoid any confusion, it’s important to emphasize that the lack of PLM support on systemd-free Linux distributions or BSD systems does not mean you can’t use the KDE Plasma desktop environment there. Plasma itself remains fully usable on those platforms.
> In other words, for those users, the situation remains unchanged. On their systems, Plasma will continue to rely on SDDM or other platform-specific startup mechanisms, with no indication from KDE that PLM will be made portable beyond systemd environments.
Plasma Login Manager was how the KDE developers planned to support remote Wayland sessions. And they will remove X11 sessions. Someone will have to add VNC and RDP to SDDM? Or is there another way?
However it does look as though KDE will depend on systemd more in the future. In which case it will gradually drop support for BSDs and Linux distros without systemd.
FWIW, I tend to think eventually everything will. But I am more worried about Wayland than systemd for the *BSDs. AFAIK, all systemd does is start items KDE needs, so with some work I think workarounds can be created.
But, once Firefox changes to Wayland only, that will lock out NetBSD and OpenBSD. I heard FreeBSD has some kind of support for Wayland, but that probably forced FreeBSD to import a lot of Linuxisms.
I get the impression OpenBSD will not bring in those Linux specific items and NetBSD already posted Wayland is to big a project for them to import at this point.
Unlikely, KDE has well-respected developers who have been around forever who run and maintain it on BSD. No one would tell these guys to pound sand for the minor convenience that systemd brings. IMO, KDE developers (I'm a mostly inactive one myself) are generally too eager to rely systemd, but they aren't extremist about it.
Graphical login managers are just a nightmare altogether.
Genuine use cases for multiuser desktop Linux are exceedingly rare. (Are university computer labs with desktop computers still a thing? Or is it just Wi-Fi and BYOD now?)
On an effectively-single-user system, there is very little point in distinguishing between the state where the single user has logged in and the session has been locked versus the state where the single user has not yet logged in. Dealing with the discontinuities between those two states, on the other hand, is a nightmare. (e.g. Wi-Fi might be controlled through the desktop session. Why should the computer not be connected to Wi-Fi and its network services reachable, just because the user hasn't logged in yet? What about power management? If the single user has turned off the feature to automatically suspend after x minutes of inactivity through KDE settings, why should that setting only start to apply after the user has logged in, and not yet when the greeter is still sitting idle? Those kinds of behaviours are usually not what you want) -- And, subjectively, I've found the KDE login manager to be the buggiest part of my KDE experience anyway.
I would advise anyone to set up auto login with something like sddm, and skip the whole thing. Password entry is a bit redundant, assuming the user has already entered at least one password for disk encryption, and things like ssh are governed through key pairs.
> Are university computer labs with desktop computers still a thing?
Of course, people shouldn't be forced to bring or even have a laptop powerful enough for using during the classes or finishing their tasks.
> Why should the computer not be connected to Wi-Fi and its network services reachable, just because the user hasn't logged in yet? What about power management? If the single user has turned off the feature to automatically suspend after x minutes of inactivity through KDE settings, why should that setting only start to apply after the user has logged in, and not yet when the greeter is still sitting idle?
These were reasons GDM integrated GNOME components and KDE forked SDDM to PLM.
> Genuine use cases for multiuser desktop Linux are exceedingly rare. (Are university computer labs with desktop computers still a thing? Or is it just Wi-Fi and BYOD now?)
When I was a student in 2015, we had several computer labs. One was called the Delphinium because it was populated with Dell machines running Linux, and another was called the Orchard because it was full of iMacs. There was a lab of Windows machines too which didn't have a memorable name.
> Genuine use cases for multiuser desktop Linux are exceedingly rare.
Not everyone is a rich american. People share computers.
I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding here.
A multiuser system is a system where multiple users are logged in at the same time and ussing the computer.
So a multi-user desktop Linux would be a computer where multiple people are logged in each with their own desktop session on the same machine.
That was the way unix was first used, a big computer somewhere with multiple client terminals connected to it all doing their own thing. This is the environment x11 came about as well.
Nowadays even if the computer is shared by multiple people each with their own account only one of them is using it at a time.
I even am a well-off American and i share one of my computers
You shouldn't assume that someone with the disk password is entitled to the user's data. That's kinda a fundamental separation. Your home directory should be encrypted separately from the disk anyway
Universities have computer labs. Companies have shared computers. Households have shared computers.
Can KDE function without it, using e.g. lightdm? If so, not a big deal.
> We are not sure where you folks are getting your info, but it is dead wrong.
> FreeBSD users will still be able to boot into Plasma with any other login manager that works on FreeBSD, including SDDM, which is upstream from Plasma anyway.
> Linux users will just have one more option.
> Plasma has no hard systemd dependencies.
Yes. You can also continue to use SDDM.
SDDM will keep working, and KDE maintains a LightDM greeter. You don't even need to use a login manager, most people in the BSD space launch it from the tty
I almost feel like they do it on purpose just to piss off Bryan Lunduke.
It can. For now, at least.
it can yes
Can someone explain why SystemD was controversial in the first place? I just saw faster boot times when distros adopted it.
Scope creep, violation of the Unix philosophy, large attack surface area, second system syndrome, interoperability concerns. It didn’t help that the creator’s other well-known project, PulseAudio, was also controversial at the time, for similar reasons.
Wrote about present day reasons to dislike systemd a few days ago on HN, which encompasses most arguments of actual substance[0] (tldr: Unix philosophy, it homogenizes distros and it may be too heavy for some low-resource environments).
Historic reasons mostly come down to systemds developers being abrasive jerks to people. Systemd has some weird behavior choices that only really make sense from the perspective where every computer is a desktop; ie. it terminates all processes spawned by a user when logging out unless they were made in a specific way with systemd-run. This makes sense on a desktop - users log out, you want everything they did to be cleaned up. On a server it makes less sense, since you probably want a tmux/screen session to keep running when you sign out of your ssh session (either by choice as a monitoring tool, or alternatively because you have an unstable connection and need a persistent shell).
Every downstream distro got surprised by this change[1] and nowadays just ships a default configuration that turns it off, because upstream systemd developers weren't interested in hearing the complaints.
Most of these footguns have been ironed out over the years though.
There's also some really dumb arguments to dislike systemd, most of which just can be summarized as "people have an axe to grind with Lennart Poettering for some reason".
[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46794562
[1]: It was always available, but suddenly turned on by default in an update.
To over-simplify, it's about conflicting philosophical alignment:
- systemd: integration and features at the cost of complexity and scope
- traditional: simplicity and composability at the cost of boot speed and convenience
systemd conflicts against the more traditional unix philosophies as well as minimalism.
I worked on both Linux login process, SDDM and LightDM in the past. The process is complex to put it mildly.
While PAM is a relatively straightforward system, interfacing with it and handling what it says is a bit backwards and complex (e.g.: Try to handle and relay LDAP password policy warnings to the user while in the login screen, and you'll have a fun time).
While I don't like systemd, I can understand why KDE devs want to integrate with it, esp. if doing so simplifies their life and reduces the number of edge cases.
Also, last but not the least, a KDE session is a complex beast. KDE overrides almost half of the environment it inherits to realize what the user has requested via System Settings (locales, esp.).
So this is why I don't condone, but understand what they did.
...and yes, as everyone said, KDE will work with any login manager.
PAM is indeed a minefield.
A while back I lost a system because I had it configured with full disk encryption and pam_usb for totp-enhanced logins. A bugged update that I applied via pacman broke PAM and I lost my ability to login. This would have been just annoying and not catastrophic had I not also had FDE and forgotten where I stored my LUKS key.
Lesson learned.
Gentoo already has elogind which mimics the necessary systemd facilities... surely that could be used on other distros/OSes to support PLM as well.
Yeah, elogind + sddm is what I'm running on Void Linux with KDE.
I didn't install a login manager. I login to console and run startplasma-wayland if I want a gui.
I'm not sure I'm missing anything.
Ability to run a session remotely.
lol, sounds like you've got extra something
I hope there can be ways to circumvent this limitation and make it usable on non-systemd installs, i.e. with elogind (systemd's "logind extracted out to be a standalone daemon") https://github.com/elogind/elogind
There’s nothing to circumvent. Just continue to use you current login manager like you’ve been doing for years already.
This only affects a new login manager. Not existing ones.
It's worth noting that all of this drama stems from the (somewhat opaque, to put it nicely) reddit comments of one KDE developer, so that warrants treating it as a rumor in my book.
It would be prudent to wait for an announcement or clarification from KDE leadership before assuming anything one way or the other.
The Reddit thread had comments of 2 KDE developers and a link to the merged merge request removing FreeBSD support.
Sounds like a dependency. Not a particularly new issue in software.
Yeah, if you want initd support work it on your own , its opensource anyways (and initd is too basic to do any of those advanced features of systemd)
Are there still a lot Linux distros that don't use systemd?
tl;dr: this is a new login manager. Nothing is changing for existing login managers.
So you can continue to use KDE Plasma on alternative init daemons / non-Linux OSs like before.
KDE's decision to move toward only supporting systemD systems is a real loss and saddens me. KDE has been my favorite DE for years. I guess all good things come to an end, though.
They’re not. This is one new and entirely optional login manager. Nothing that is already available is changing
No, Plasma Login Manager relies on systemd. SDDM and any other login manager doesn't. You can still use KDE.