Item — HN Reader

"Anyone playing around with things like Reticulum? LoRA? Mesh networks?"

I'm curious about the 'day after' scenario: what's the move if the state decides to regulate these into "illegality" because they bypass official channels? We have to remember that the devices aren't the problem... the real hurdle is the bureaucratic gatekeeping of communication. The problem are people, not devices.

5 comments

It could be a difficult battle for them to fight. We'd just have to make it too costly. Make them go hunt down all the relays. Scatter them everywhere. A $5 ESP32 isn't a good relay but they still have to hunt it down and that'll cost a lot more than $5.

So the answer is the same as any war: you make it too expensive to keep fighting. It's the same reason a bunch of barely trained people in the desert won a war against a force with far greater military power. It's the same reason a bunch of jungle people defeated the country that just won a world war. It's also the same reason a bunch of rednecks defeated the largest military in the world (at the time) and were able to create an even larger empire.

It's not hard to make them give up. It's going to be a cat and mouse game but it already is

I appreciate what you're trying to say, but here's a counter-example: .22lr ammunition is also extremely inexpensive per unit, but I can't buy that at all in Ireland without extensive, recurring background checks and a demonstrated continuing need for access. If a government decides you don't get to have something, they are well within their power to effectively eliminate it. I can no more make an ESP32 at home than ammunition. I reckon it's harder, in fact.

[To the government Cornholio reading this and panicking because I mentioned a gun thing: no, I'm not threatening you.]

As long as there's a country willing to build and sell ESP32s, I think it would be fairly easy to get hold of them. How does a customs agent distinguish between an ESP32 and another microcontroller? These things are in every gadget. Is a government really going to ban all electronics?

Just look at how ineffective governments are at stopping drugs. If people are motivated to smuggle things, they will. Is there going to be a booming black market in ESP32s? Probably not. But will motivated people manage to import them? Almost certainly.

The power imbalance is not in favor of the individual citizen. Fairly simple to enact a law saying "unlicenced importation of electronic devices is an offence", only license major retailers, and have Customs seize anything that doesn't come with the right paperwork attached (which they already do). Drugs are far easier to make than silicon chips, despite how clever people like Sam Zeloof may be.

To have a firearms permit here, I need a "Good Reason" - that's the language from the law verbatim. "I like guns" is not a Good Reason. In that vein, what would be your Good Reason for receiving an import license to bring in technology which is apparently widely used by radicals to defy duly-ratified legislation about communications visibility and enable the creation of side channels which break the law and can be used to proliferate CSAM, drugs, and terrorism? I'm sure any sane person would agree that those are bad things which need to be stopped. Perhaps you should take up a different hobby, like jogging.

And there we have it!

  > despite how clever people like Sam Zeloof may be.

You don't need to fabricate silicon chips to create radio. You need conductors, resistors, and electricity. Almost every person currently alive has several objects transmitting radio signals within arms reach.

  > The power imbalance is not in favor of the individual citizen.

Yes it is. Because the cost is so fucking trivial that it costs magnitudes more to send someone to find a transmitter than it takes to make a dozen transmitters.

1. Nobody cares enough to do all this except some nerds on HN.

2. Spurious radio transmissions from your spark gap set will be tracked down in an afternoon by government foxhunters, and then you'll be in jail for breaking the law.

I don't understand why people think they can meaningfully kinetically resist. The discussion now needs to be convincing the random voter why this is a problem for them, or the game is lost.

1) That's enough people

2) You've clearly never done a foxhunt

  > The discussion now needs to be

There's nothing preventing both from happening. By framing it as an "or" situation rather than an "and" situation you are acting as the type of person you're criticizing.

First off, guns aren't a subcomponent of a vast majority of modern items. The ESP32 was an example but the reality is anything with a radio. Be it WiFi, Bluetooth, or anything.

Second off, guns are incredibly easy to make. Easy enough that they make them in prisons and Japan. But you know what's a million times easier than that? Radio. It's a common first electronics project. You can literally make it out of a few resisters, capacitors, and some wire.

Literally the cost of fighting this type of technology is taking down all wireless infrastructure. ALL of it. And even then it's still a god awfully expensive thing to fight because anyone with a hot pointy object, an electricity source, and some things that are slightly bad at conducting electricity can make a radio

>As long as there's a country willing to build and sell ESP32s, I think it would be fairly easy to get hold of them.

You could say the same about firearms.

>Is a government really going to ban all electronics?

All electronics that can be freely programmed by the owner, not impossible.

  > All electronics that can be freely programmed by the owner, not impossible.

I'm not sure that is possible. Most chips are reprogramable. You think your cheap electricians are going to put in high security defenses?

Even Google and Apple can't keep themselves from getting jailbroken. You think that's going to be true about a $5 toy with a WiFi or Bluetooth chip in it.

It'll be too expensive

There's not enough people to care.

They have the propaganda advantage (think of the children, those who undermine the system are pedophiles by definition). They have the law (just reclassify such activity as aiding and abetting the distribution of child pornography). They have the scare tactics (nobody wants 30 years in prison and an entry on the sexual offender's register).

This war will be won with words and at most a few arrests, just to make an example, just like the war on terror and anonymous financial activity.

Privacy just doesn't matter for 99+% of the population as much as we think, which is very much unlike piracy or drugs for example. If this wasn't the case, we'd all be using Signal and Monero right now.

  > There's not enough people to care.

You'd be surprised at how few people it takes. You don't even need 10% of the population.

But what, you're going to give up without a fight?

Even if you won't fight then why fight for your enemy by telling others not to fight?

This comes to mind at once: https://meshtastic.org/

But yes, your point is largely valid as long as enough people are willing to jump the ship.

So does the original thing I mentioned

https://reticulum.network/

Anyone remember when the discussions about classifying the internet as a utility and Akit’s stupid Reese cup coffee mug. It feels so long ago given how much has transpired since.

MeshCore is spreading quite rapidly - it uses solar powered repeaters and that helps a lot. :)

I'm kinda sold by reticulum since it's independent of a lot of factors. You can also bridge it with meshcore or meshtastic.

Yeah, there is definitely more projects now & they seem to be evolving quite rapidly. :)

"Bypass official channels!?" The overton window has moved so far!!!!

This is exactly the argument that is (correctly) levied against firearm restrictions.