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The four day work week is a prisoner's dilemma. If everyone did it, then we'd all get a payoff, but if someone defects to a longer work week they tend to get ahead at work. Thus we all do it and thus we all lose.

It's funny how underappreciated it is how the five day work week is powered by norms...at least in the US. People assume there are laws about it.

The only laws dictate compensation past certain thresholds, and in the case of well paid knowledge workers those don't even tend to apply. If you ever read HR material referring to your role as "exempt" now you know what you're exempt from.

18 comments

> but if someone defects to a longer work week they tend to get ahead at work. Thus we all do it and thus we all lose.

A four-day-a-week worker here.

I don't know what you exactly mean, but my personal experience is exactly the opposite. I worked for a startup as a founding engineer, just 4d/w (the CTO was crazily open-minded), and I was never so productive. Doesn't matter that the others were working 5 days, pushing more; it was my responsibility to keep up, and it worked pretty well.

Same now, working for a company with the same arrangement.

And no one is or was "losing."

Out of curiosity, how many hours per day did you work? Was it the same overall time as a 5-day week, just distributed over 4 days, or did you work a whole day less than others?

I went through a big back and forth with a small startup where I initially negotiated in at 3 days a week. Eventually they said "we really need you the full 5 days" and I explained that I'm gonna do the same amount of work regardless and they could pay me 40% less by agreeing to 3 days. they still wanted me 5 days, so I took the job and just coasted those 2 days from home, they were still very happy with my performance, I ended up quitting in 6 months because I wanted my hours in the day back.

I really think management still doesn't get it.

I personally believe in rolling company shutdowns. Give engineering a week off every quarter. Give product the following week off.

Alright guys, I'm running for president. 4 day work weeks (8 hours each) for employees or prison.

You could likely get some funding for a PAC based around this. You just have to get Altman, Musk, and the other to realize that it’s a good marketing move.

“Our AI is so awesome and boosts productivity so much that no one has to work another 5 day week, ever again.”

Musk is in favor for 12-hour days 7 days a week and no unions.

benefits for the commoner? not in a million years they will support that

You have my vote. Work to live, don’t live to work.

~90% of Iceland is on a 35-36 hours work week, seems to work fine.

Remote work was also skeptically thought of up until a global pandemic forced it, and while there has been some retreat, 20% of Americans work remotely in some capacity still. Just need a catalyst to challenge norms and rigid mental models.

https://autonomy.work/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/ICELAND_4DW...

https://www.cnn.com/2024/10/25/business/iceland-shorter-work...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/nov/21/icelan...

>20% of Americans work remotely in some capacity still

That's a pretty abysmal number considering the number who do want remote work and its productivity improvements and its overall lower waste. I'm surprised it's so low.

EU average is 35.9.

Maybe don't force how many days people should work. Force number of hours (32) and let people decide, how many days...

You have my vote. Clearly anyone can do it.

My thinking tends to be that our standard work week is an equilibrium among a few different forces. We’re motivated by social norms, capital markets, and biological needs and wants. In places like the U.S. the market forces have been powerful enough to really shift social norms. In tandem they’re probably slowly altering our biology too.

I think you are right. It is practically baked into the American Dream.

What do you mean? You just need to ban companies from doing 5 days work.

Amusingly, there is literally not even a 7 day work week ban for companies in the US. You can require employees work every day. Employers are just required to pay employees overtime under various conditions beyond 40 hours / five days a week, which is why you don't see it.

And what's more, software engineers are exempt from these rules because of their pay grades. If you're a SWE making a salary the odds are your employer could require you work on Saturdays without running afowl of labor laws.

This is all powered by norms.

it's not powered by norms. In the US, if you want to employ someone more than 40 hours you have to give them extra overtime pay. It's called the Fair Labor Standards Act and it was passed in 1938

"Yeah, hello, Peter. What's happening? Listen, um, I'm going to need you to go ahead and come in on Saturday. So, if you could be here around 9, that would be great. Mmhkay? Oh, oh, and I almost forgot. I'm also going to need you to go ahead and come in on Sunday too."

You would also need to ban them from employing people in other countries that allow 5 days work.

Same logic applies internationally.

Pretty much everywhere outside the US has stronger employee protections on this (with a few obvious notable exceptions).

France is a great place to be an employee.

By this logic you could get promoted if you worked six day work weeks.

Have you not seen people who work longer and harder get more promotions? That has been my experience.

Right, so if it's happening already, nothing is going to change. Four days a week it is!

There's a reason 996 culture is seeping into American startups. Whether it actually makes them more productive in the market remains to be seen.

And this is true… employees who work and produce more, better things often get promoted. Spending more time doing things leads to producing more and better things

I did get promoted for working seven days work weeks. Twice, in fact.

My wife effectively works 3-4 days a week. For mums with young kids its pretty common here in western Europe to have 60% deal, most I know have 80% deal. It means 3-4 days a week just to be sure, not say 6 work hour days.

Made up self-pressure is among the worst things smart folks can do in their lives.

Four day work week for same pay is entirely possible - change how the work happens

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/40691306/

A lot of people work less than full time....

Like...

You can actually work 4 x 8 if you want to. Or 5x5... No gun to your head

Yeah, agreed, you'll have a hard time finding a job with full benis and vacation yada yada, but like,.... Every CEO loves to negotiate

So stop being a bitch

If 4x8 is important to you:

Negotiate

***************

Reply to madrox:

"Demands" is a loaded term. In negotiations you enter with "must haves" and "like to haves"...

Through the course of negotiations you learn new information and reveal your own information....

At the end, whether you take the job or not: you end up with what you deserve. Not what you want.

By my assessment, a lot of people are learning that "deserve" is not a character trait, it's market driven.

This is true, and there is usually a tradeoff you make for it. To your point, it's a negotiation. You usually give something up to get something or be so good you simply cannot be replaced. Such people do not represent the bulk of the workforce, and we're talking about norms here.

Because to that CEO you're talking about, you have to convince them your demands are better than the next candidate who doesn't mind working more hours.

> if someone defects to a longer work week they tend to get ahead at work. Thus we all do it and thus we all lose.

If that is the case, wouldn't the same would apply to those who work overtime and on weekends?

I feel these vibes whilst living in Munich (or Bavaria, for that matter). Most stores / shops are forbidden to operate on Sundays or past 8pm, that is enshrined in an ancient law. If you want to open a new store and you are willing to operate Sundays, or perhaps until 10pm, and your employees are also willing to work then...nope, can't do it. Would get ahead of the competition. Not fair, blablabla.

> The four day work week is a prisoner's dilemma. If everyone did it, then we'd all get a payoff, but if someone defects to a longer work week they tend to get ahead at work.

If that is the case, then the same would apply to those who work overtime and on weekends.

Why isn’t this the case for a six day workweek?

This is a great question and I encourage you to learn the history of it, because it's fascinating. It’s rooted in labor movements and industrialization.

It was, the 40 hour work week was hard fought for.

Also, 996 is apparently a thing

Yes, it's just norms. 15 years ago, I worked for a small startup. For a good 8 or 9 months, we were working 6 and sometimes 7 days a week. We weren't contractually required to, but everyone "wanted" to. I use scare quotes there, but I think a lot of people (myself included, for part of it), really did want to.

But ultimately the unsaid thing was: you either work 6/7 days a week, or you get marginalized or fired. And it's not like we weren't putting in the hours on the weekdays; most of us were working 12-hour days, or more. (And wow, we got to drop down to 8-10 on the weekends! So generous!)

Dumb. I'll never do something like that again. Not worth it, and certainly not for someone else's company.

This is why it needs to be done top down. Pareto optimizations can only happen that way.

This is why labor laws and unions exist. It's unfortunate that in the US both have diminished under a withering assault from the ruling class over the past several decades.

If only there were some kind of third party we could all collectively agree to delegate enforcement of cooperation to...

Interestingly, software engineers are usually considered exempt in the US, meaning they can be required to work more than 40 hours a week without overtime pay if employers choose to.

Unless you're imagining congress do something. I want to shoot fireballs from my fingers, but unfortunately we don't live in a world of magic.

If only. The only way to delegate enforcement is to give them a monopoly on the legitimate use of violence. Unfortunately all such potential organizations are run by human beings, who, when given violence as a tool, will use that violence as a tool.

> enforcement of cooperation

That is an oxymoron. I think you probably meant coercion.

Cynical take because why arent we working 6 days a week then

Because, as the OP said, working hours are powered by norms. There are salaried positions and companies and teams that certainly will make you work 6 days a week, or make you feel like a bad worker if you don't do anything on a Saturday. But the vast majority of companies (and employees within those companies) would consider the expectation of working a 6th day to be completely unacceptable.