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I had not heard of the Libby (Montana) community before.
But from the description in the article, it is clear they are at the liberalising end of the Amish.
And one thing that almost certainly follows from their liberalisation, is their TFR (Total Fertility Rate) is going to gradually converge with mainstream society – not necessarily with the very low levels associated with the completely secular, but at least with the levels associated with mainstream conservative evangelicalism – modestly above the secular average, a lot lower than the Old Order Amish average.
By contrast, groups at the most conservative end of the Amish–e.g. the Swartzentruber–have a very high TFR, and it seems unlikely it is moderating to any significant degree; and also I'm sure their Pennsylvania Dutch is much healthier as a language.
Comparing Pennsylvania Dutch to Yiddish, I think the fact that Yiddish-speaking Hasidic communities (e.g. Kiryas Joel) use it as a written language, e.g. for their newspapers and community notices, and also a language of instruction in schools, puts Yiddish on a much more secure footing. I wonder why the Amish have never made much effort to write their distinctive language down? As far as I know, there isn't any theological objection, just a cultural habit they've stuck with. (They could keep standard German for their liturgy, just as the Hasidim use Hebrew not Yiddish for theirs.) I wonder if at some point, any of them will realise that investing in their distinctive language would be conducive to their long-term prospects of surviving the forces of assimilation.
Hasidim go to school in Yiddish for up to 12 hours a day through 12 grade and their secular and English education ends in 8th grade and is afterward taught exclusively in Yiddish with a side of Hebrew. After 12th grade many men continue to study Torah and Talmud all day for many years with rabbis doing so all their lives. The Talmud is in Aramaic and Hebrew but instruction, conversation and writing about it is conducted in Yiddish rather than English. Yiddish has orthographies in both the standard Hebrew script where it has a vast literature and is intelligibly romanized in Latin script with good concordance.
By contrast Pennsylvania German has never even had a standard orthography much less a literature. In the past fancy Dutch would read and write in Hochdeutsch (the standard literary German, for their times). Old order Amish education is exclusively in English and they are taught to read and write only in English except for reading the German Luther bible for church (as well as they can; typically most do better with the English side in the King James) and singing the Ausbund in German. Education ends altogether in 8th grade. Days are consumed with farmwork or trade work, chores, family life. Other than the Bible and the Ausbund (which is just a songbook) their religious texts are in English. There are some well-regarded old order Amish authors and journalist's who write books and periodicals in English. Many publications used by the Amish aren’t written by old order Amish but other Amish, Mennonites, and others.
In short there is no opening whatsoever for Pennsylvania German to become a written living literary language. There is a translation of the Bible into Deitsch done by outsiders that pretty much no one asked for and no one uses.
> In short there is no opening whatsoever for Pennsylvania German to become a written living literary language.
I wasn’t talking about it becoming a “literary” language
Consider this website - https://www.ujcbg.org/ - it is in Yiddish, but there is nothing “literary” about it, it is simply a news source for the Hasidic community of South Blooming Grove (village next door to Kiryas Joel). It contains articles on topics such as Sabbath rules for property developers and the volunteer fire department.
There’s no great barrier to Amish people using Deitsch for those kinds of purely practical communication purposes. It doesn’t require any advanced education or a standardised orthography. Historically speaking, a “standardised orthography” is something most languages didn’t have (prior to the influence of the printing press/etc)
A starting point could be as simple as one of the English language Amish newspapers deciding to include a section in Deitsch
I really enjoyed this article. I grew up with a small amount of a similarly uncommon (outside of religious groups) Germanic language, one that I’ve learned more of as an adult, and many of the experiences (around struggling to get people to speak it, even when they know it) ring true.
> I grew up using this term, but upon encountering Louden’s work, I learned that “dialect” often functions more as an insult than a linguistically useful designation.
A shprakh iz a dyalekt mit armey un flot!
I asked an LLM to help me find the standard German equivalent for "hooche Leit",
and it said "hohe Leute" 'high people' (here in the sense of 'fancy people'), which of course doesn't have the same connotation, but that's the etymological sense.
That would be "Höhergestellte" nowadays.
"höhergestellte" are "superiors". "hohe leute" is more like "upper class people"
Or "high lede" in English
Apologies for being nit-picky, but there is no etymological sense. The output of your LLM has the same etymological root, but a different meaning. In terms of translation, it is therefore plain wrong.
Honestly, I was triggered to correct this comment mostly because it illustrates how we tend to explain away mistakes made by an LLM. It's not about subtle 'connotation', but the meaning is just incorrect. No offense meant to the poster, this is a trap the world has been falling into at scale for the past few years.
I don’t know what you are nitpicking and we don’t have the prompt or output, but from first-hand knowledge that was basically correct.
“hooche Leit” is PA dialect for standard German “hohe Leute,” literally “high people” in the sense of “fancy” people as opposed to plain people, as there used to be “plain Dutch” and “fancy Dutch” to refer to plain (Anabaptist) Pennsylvania Germans as opposed to other (now basically assimilated) German people in Pennsylvania. Commonly what her community and many other Deitsch-speaking communities call “hooche Leit” in Deitsch, they will often simply call “English” in English. From her description that’s probably fallen mostly out of use in her Libby community given their religious abandonment of the Ordnung.
I don't think I understand your criticism.
The etymological sense of the Pennsylvania Dutch phrase is in fact, as far as I can tell, 'high people' or 'fancy people'. This is not the literal meaning or connotation of the phrase in Pennsylvania Dutch today. I did not think (and the LLM did not claim) that the phrase is used in Pennsylvania Dutch with this meaning, or that it was borrowed from standard German at any time. Essentially, the LLM helped me find recognizable cognates to understand how the phrase originated.
I used my old fashioned bio neural net trained on standard German and also understood it that way. What else is it supposed to mean?
I've had a bit of fun working with low resource languages (aboriginal australian), and enjoying the result from Facebook's No Language Left Behind project -> https://huggingface.co/facebook/nllb-200-distilled-600M
I'd recommend giving it a squiz. (I assume Amish has a large corpus)
“Amish” isn’t a language but Pennsylvania Dutch has plenty of written material, although most speakers of it prefer to write in English with the occasional person who prefers German.
I live adjacent to a few thousand speakers of it and I doubt there is a single person over the age of 8 who can’t speak English fluently.
Due to the lack of a standard orthography don’t expect LLMs to do anything remotely usable other than generate a few laughs.
> (I assume Amish has a large corpus)
Pennsylvania Dutch does not, it is primarily oral and the Amish generally don't allow themselves to be photographed or recorded.
Hi, I'm Eythana, author of the article. A corpus is currently being built! Lots of Amish are actually okay with audio recordings, and there are tons of formerly Amish who contribute too.
Rose Fisher at Michigan State is creating it. We're both interested and slowly working on familiarizing speakers with the orthographies that do actually exist (BBB is our preferred one). They've just been floating around in niche and/or academic crevices and most people don't know about them. Rose has great info on her site here https://penndutchdialects.org/pennsylvania-dutch-isnt-a-writ...
One thing you learn if you study the Amish or interact with them personally: there is no "Amish generally" or "the Amish usually".
Every Amish congregation makes their own rules. The local deacons vote on changes. Each "Fellowship" of congregations has tenets and rules they require to be "in fellowship" but otherwise don't have control over the individual groups. Splits are often driven by disagreement over the fellowship rules.
There are Amish that own cars but the group might specify that each family may only own one car and it must be model X and of color Y with a specific set of features. Most people are aware of the groups that prohibit cars - requiring use of horse and buggy.
Some Amish allow electricity, but only connected to the barn or only when provided by solar power. Or they might only allow it to the extent required to comply with regulation - for example refrigeration for milk on a dairy farm. Some allow cell phones, but not in the home (you leave it in the barn or a lockbox). Some prohibit them entirely. Some Amish groups allow machinery but apply restrictions that don't allow use of the machinery to end up with one farmer greatly out-producing others. So when a farmer gets old they may allow them to buy a tractor for fieldwork but require it be pulled by horses.
You might also be surprised to learn many Amish experiment with new technology. Often the deacons will appoint a "nerdy" (for lack of a better term) person in the community to use some new thing. They'll evaluate its effects and costs. Then hold a vote on whether to allow it and what the rules will be. Sometime their answer to changes is not "no" but "not yet".
The decisions are nominally driven by a desire to be independent and to avoid negatively affecting family life rather than rejecting technology directly. Most don't allow electricity, cell phones, or internet inside the home because it would lead to people not interacting or connecting with each other. When power tools are allowed they're often pneumatic so they don't need to be tied to the grid and thus dependent upon "the English" - though with Solar and batteries that has rapidly changed.
Most don't allow extensive use of farming machinery because it could lead to your neighbor out-producing you, leading to them getting much richer and having more than you leading to discord in the community. If cars are allowed they may require everyone to buy the same car so there is no jealousy or "keeping up with the Joneses".
Amish are just people so they certainly have assholes and jerks but many are friendly people and if you treat them genuinely they'll repay the favor. They will not be offended that you use a cell phone or drive a car.
Surprising how often things boil down to "they're just people and most people, if treated with respect, will repay in kind".
Since I got downvoted merely for asking: apparently, "squiz" is Australian/NZ slang for a glance or quick look. I honestly didn't know there were any Amish down under.
"squiz"?
> But it became harder and harder for some members to keep refusing modern conveniences
I read about Amish people and I have very high respect for their traditions. Sometime I believe that's exactly how the society should be guided. It's not about getting harder and harder to keep refusing the modern practices. It is about slowing the adoption of such practices to ensure that the community still stays above the individual. I hope they can slow it down as much as possible.
"Individualism is frowned upon" - that's a great way to keep the community stronger. I experienced this in my community from South India. People are hardly known by their own names. Everyone was called by their family name only or something like "grandson of XYZ".
"Too much education causes separation" - another true observation, affects Indian families a lot. Each generation is alienated from its previous generation, only because of education, jobs and foreign living.
One of my perennial essay ideas, something I've tried to express well (and mostly failed) for decades, is this... Here goes again, I guess.
Immigrants coming to a new culture face hard choices about which customs to keep, and which to let go. If the culture is different enough, they often straight up refuse, and try to hold on to everything they can. This doesn't work. If they try this, from what I've seen their children will probably adopt the worst aspects of both the old culture and the new. What is needed is a conscious choice, about what's important and why, and even more crucially, what's not important.
I tell the story with immigrants because it's easier for people to see it in others. But really, all of us face the same choice, because culture is always changing. We all have to decide what really matters in our culture, what's worth passing on - and what to let go. If we never go against the stream, we end up at the same common low point. But if we always try to go against the stream, we fail.
I think Amish have mostly succeeded in keeping their culture because consciousness about the "why" of their rules is usually (not always!) at front. And they don't reject everything modern, and they're not static in response to a changing world (as this article is a good example of).
The idea of keeping their culture, especially focusing on Amish, is not as rigid as many think. Many forget that the Amish, as a split off group from the Mennonites already had an immigration phase before going to the US. They came from Switzerland and north-eastern France and were forced to settle into southern Germany because of repressions.
Oddly enough they chose to assimilate with the local populace or at least transplant the ideals of anabaptism, thus adopting the local rhine-frankish dialect, instead of keeping the romansh or french dialects. They specifically chose to not repeat that when coming to America, for whatever other reasons they had.
I didn't know that Amish thought so lowly of their own language, I think that's just sad. It's their own language and there's no reason to measure it against others.
these are amish in a state with low amish presence and super liberal.
in the ohio/penn area there are tons of amish who are thriving.
i think its cool that in america people can do their own thing and make it work.
I'm the author of the article :) while you're right that Libby is uniquely positioned, I see this attitude often in places like Geauga County, Ohio, for example, where I have many relatives. Just 2 weeks ago an Amish girl there, who's traditional, surrounded by other Amish, tole me she hardly speaks it at all anymore, even with her family at home! That area also doesn't represent the majority, but in areas besides Libby, it's increasingly common to use it more, among young people / with friends especially, but obviously it extends even further for her. She didn't really have an explanation but said she just doesn't even think about it and essentially prefers English. There isn't always overt negativity, but dismissal or apathy are very common.
The thing I always think about when I think about societies like this is, They are on a timer. Eventually, they will have no choice to but accept mechanization. Because humans will not able to farm in 90% humidity due to wetbulb physics. Animal husbandry will most likely be a WORSE horror show than what we have now, due to the fact that most live stock will similarly be unable to deal with the heat. And lets be honest, most of the farms we have now are unsustainable. So famine is definitely a thing we'll have to consider.
> Difficult to communicate affection, impossible to say the word love. We have no distinct word for it.
I wonder what it says about a community that its language has no word for "love".
That stuck out to me because it’s absolutely untrue. Deitsch/Pennsylvania Dutch has “liiwe/liwe/liewe” (there is no standard written orthography for the language) which is precisely “lieben” in standard German. The author absolutely knows this despite her implicit claim that it’s a loanword rather than part of the vocabulary (which it absolutely is, even if her community is sparing in how they use it in Deitsch).
It’s certainly true that Amish much less the small and peculiar Libby community (which isn’t representative of wider Amish culture although part of it) have different ways of expressing feelings just as Germans are different from Americans and have very different ways of relating.
Bear in mind that she went from a remote group of emergent Amish to UC Berkeley, she is a fairly young writer and obviously still processing her background.
From the article;
> The contours of Pennsylvania Dutch words are harder and sharper than English ones. It’s hard to ask for a soft favor. Difficult to communicate affection, impossible to say the word love. We have no distinct word for it. One must use the standard German liebe, obtuse and antiquated in our mouths, or succumb to English, a concession. It is a tongue of commands and directives, probing questions about family relations, occupation in the most literal sense, and of following rules.
It might then have been more correct to specify that in the author's regional dialect this is the case but not in Deitsch generally.
To me as a native dutch speaker and a non-native Platt (Dutch Low German) and Frisian speaker it leaves me with a couple of questions:
If liiwe/liwe/liewe is used in at least some variants of Deitsch; does it's meaning (originally) als mean to convey interpersonal affection? Is liwwe/liwe/liewe still used in the infinitive or even as a noun? As you pointed out it is not common to express feelings so explicitly in the culture/language; so does liiwe/liwe/liewe still have the meaning of showing affection if there was no use for it or did it (re)gain the meaning of the word later on? If some dialects of Deitsch lose some of the gramatical forms of the word liwwe/liwe/liewe or completely stop using is, would it not make sense to use the SHG or English words in it's stead to signify a non-native meaning?
I’m Eythana, the author. That German loanword isn’t used at all, I could say virtually to be safe, but it’s really not used anywhere among the Amish. No one in my community ever did, and the same goes for communities in Ohio where I have many relatives. But besides my anecdotes, Rose Fisher, a linguist at Michigan State who works on the language, has validated this claim, and so has Mark Louden, the foremost PD historian, who I quote extensively. They both reviewed the piece. I could believe that a century or two ago, it was in usage, perhaps, but it isn’t anymore. To say we have no “distinct” word isn’t an exaggeration. We have to borrow directly from German or English as no one uses the loanword version. I’m open to seeing evidence to the contrary. I should say it’s possible that non-sectarian (non-Amish or otherwise historically religious) speakers of PD, of which there aren’t many anymore, may use that? If so, I could have clarified with a caveat, but since the Amish are the primary speakers of PD today, and where my experience comes, it wasn’t something I broached. And also, there was an editorial decision about not discussing non-sectarians in general for the same reasons.
It certainly doesn't say that there is any less love among members of that community.
It would be more correct to say that there is no direct translation for the English word "love". Lots of languages fall in that category. Languages are complicated.
This is flatly untrue; the language has a word for love, or people just use the High German or English term for it, along with colloquial expressions (like calling someone sweet).
A statement like this makes the author lose all credibility:
Neither our language nor our culture invites dwelling in the complexities of grief and loss.
This is a common attitude I’ve seen, though, of people who leave the culture / language - a certain type of sneering contempt for how uneducated and culturally poor the group they left is: “Their language is so poor they can’t say the word love or express grief or loss.” It is interesting she claims to want to try to “preserve the language” whilst having a very poor understanding of it.
Spanish has distinct words for love: querer and amar.
Even Dothraki has a word for love!
> Ich hab honestly really struggled
Funny. That's how (swiss) german gen z sounds to me.
That's reminds me on Sefardi/Jewish-Spanish dialect of Spanish. I've read some of it I can understand a 97% módulo some Jewish related words.
> Louden points out, for example, that Swedish and Norwegian are highly mutually intelligible, but neither is considered a dialect of the other, or of a parent language, primarily because each is associated with a separate nation-state.
This reminds me of the famous saying, "A language is a dialect with an army and navy."
It was also originally uttered in a German-adjacent language, Yiddish: "a shprakh iz a dyalekt mit an armey un flot."
I wonder whether locals in the German Palatinate region can still understand Pennsylvania Dutch, given that it supposedly originates from their dialect.
We can understand them! Especially if you are ready and used being hit with interjected English words. It is hard to get used to it the first few minutes (i speak two other languages, language switching is always hard for me), but once you know what to look out for we could be talking interchangeably.
My teacher in high school went there over 40 years ago, and he said, he never had any trouble. Listening on youtube to some samples i still can, and it sounds just like older people from my village, which younger people often can't understand, especially as these older people tend to mumble and speak faster a lot. Pennsylvanian Dutch sound just like this.
Keep in mind though: The region Amish people came from, the Palatinate, was historically a highly fractured region with lots of mini-kingdoms and small administrative clusters. While mostly Protestant, there are villages solely catholic, which were often trying to not mingle with the next villagers. (even it there was a mix of Catholics, Protestant and Jews)
This is mirrored in highly fractured words that are often different from village to village, even if they are just 5 kilometers away. (e.g. the word for soap or apple is pronounced totally different in the next village). This lead to some secludedness and distance which is mirrored in the article and why i think Amish were trying to maintain their distance from the local english population (if you discount the religious component of that population)
Funny sidenote: The highest rate of foreign migrants into the palatinate region --- where the amish came from --- is now from US citizens [https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a6/Karte_Kr...]
Wow, aside from ‘shprakh’ that is easily understood as an English speaker.
‘Is a dialect with (an) army and flotilla/navy’
"TFR"?
According to gemini, "Total Fertility Rate" ("average number of children a woman would have over her lifetime if she experienced the current age-specific fertility rates of her society").
This HN thing of casually using acronyms without defining them is baffling to me
(We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48903808. TFR is explained there now.)
The German critique of Pennsylvania Dutch reminded me of how the Nazis critiqued Yiddish back in the day for not being High German and thus its speakers must themselves be of lower class/value
Setting Nazis aside, Germans are used to having a single source of correct grammar and vocabulary.
The first Duden was published in 1880 and helped standardize German language a lot, even though local accents and dialects still persist. But speaking in dialect is considered somewhat low-brow in German language space, unless you are Swiss; even there, people will code-switch all the time.
(E.g. during class, both the professor and the students would speak High German, but during recess, they would switch to Swiss dialect.)
A rural language of peasants who do not use even old tech such as newspapers and radio and reside on a huge territory will necessarily diverge into a barely mutually intelligible family of local dialects, at least in the spoken form. Basically the Medieval or Early Modern standard situation.
The thing is: today (!) there is no such thing as a "german critique on Pennsylvania Dutch". Most germans aren't even aware that such a thing exists.
Also, this one citation is just anecdotal. You cannot conclude of any mainstream thinking about Pennsylvania Dutch. In the end, journalists often use items in their stories that create the highest emotions, not necessarily what reflects reality the most. So the writer of that citation might not have outright lied, but he might not reported about the general mindset about this.
Keep in mind that in 1780 germany itself was a mishmash, hundreds of counties, fiefdoms, kingdoms, self-governed city and what not. And even the language was much more a mishmash than today. Sure, Luther's work already started a bit a common way of writing. But we still didn't have some "high german" definition, e.g. no Duden. The Grimm Brothers, not only collectors of oral stories, were just 5 and 6 years old!
I guess during that time someone from Emden (very north-west) looked down at someone from Passau (very south-east) --- and the other way. Each one claiming that the other is uttering an unintelligible gibberish.
Oh, and EVEN today people from the center of Germany thing that speaking a strong german dialect (e.g. Bavarian, Swabian, Saxonian) correlates generally with low education / lower class. Because in THEIR region it is actually so. However, in Swabian it doesn't correlate. There was even the pun that in order to climb the carrier ranks at Mercedes or Porsche, one had to speak Swabian ...