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Nuclear Submarines are an outstanding marvel of technology and the men serving on them are the most trained and psychologically conditioned of all people. From a philosophical/psychological/physiological pov i think of them as sharing a lot of the characteristics of hardcore monks/yogis. Both must have absolute self-control at all times and follow a strict unbending discipline.

The following are some good resources;

Fast Attacks and Boomers: Submarines in the Cold War - https://americanhistory.si.edu/subs/index.html An online exhibition from the National Museum of American History, Smithsonian Institution. Lots of cool pictures.

How Nuclear-Powered Submarines Actually Work - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTCNwRvUcuo An in-depth interview with David Marquet, a former US Navy submarine commander. Includes short but great clips of the insides of a submarine.

Life On A Submarine - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZbJYfyIoeo A short documentary on the British Navy submarines.

Life on board a British nuclear submarine - https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/aug/21/life-on-board-nuc... A nice article from a reporter who went through the experience.

Submarine Insider on Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/@Submarineinsider

3 comments

My cousin served more than a decade on nuclear subs and he is one of the least yogi/monk like people I’ve met. Virtually no one who knows him would say he exhibits lots of self control.

He just isn’t bothered by tight spaces or being underwater and he liked the regimented life the navy provided because it made up for his own lack of internal discipline.

I don’t know if he is normal or not on submarines but you certainly don’t have to be some guru to serve on them.

People only look at the "form" of a Yogi/Monk but forget the "function" behind their approach to life. Yogis/Monks follow a framework/discipline/practice which they apply towards their philosophical goals usually some "supra-normal states of consciousness" whatever name they might give to it.

But you can take that same framework/discipline/practice and adapt it to your own chosen goal viz. Science/Business/Sports/Education etc. This is what i meant in my above comment. For example, the practices of Zen Buddhism derived from Mahayana Buddhism were co-opted by the Samurai class of Japan for the performance of their duties i.e killing others or to sacrifice their own lives! This has got nothing to do with Buddhist goals but everything to do with more prosaic survival goals. Both of them are using the common philosophical/psychological/physiological (breath+body) techniques but for different purposes.

One very well-known all-encompassing framework/discipline/practice is "Ashtanga Yoga of Patanjali" detailed in the "Yoga Sutras". Read my previous comment here to understand how you can adapt it for any goal - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41538322

So when a Scientist focuses his entire energies (both mental and physical) that consumes his entire self to solve some problem he is sharing a characteristic of a Yogi for that time period. So does a student preparing for an exam, an engineer focused on solving a problem, a sportsman in the "flow state" etc.

You should now be able to see the parallels in the usage of the above framework by a submariner in the environment of a submarine. Outside of it he is no longer needed to practice that framework and thus can revert to his "ordinary civilian" self if he so chooses.

If you want to study more on the above see the excellent old classic; Yoga and Western Psychology: A Comparison by Geraldine Coster - https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.189086/mode/2u...

Philosophically and psychologically I don’t think any monk of any religion would approve working on a weapon capable of razing cities to the ground.

This is a very naive and wrong viewpoint.

Every Religion (and its underlying Philosophy) has the concepts of "Good vs. Evil", "Right vs. Wrong" etc. baked in. These are expressed as morals, ethics, rules, law, order, harmony etc. They can be relative across cultures/societies but there are also absolutes applicable for the whole of mankind.

In some Religions/Philosophies, the above concepts are not so simplistic but much more complex and nuanced. A good example is "Dharma (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma) vs. Adharma (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adharma)" and "Yin and Yang" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_and_yang).

These opposites wax and wane over time in a inter-related manner but for mankind to flourish the negatives must be suppressed and the positives enhanced. In order to maintain this balance, sometimes violence becomes necessary as a last resort in which case it is called "A Righteous and Just War".

And a few other things that made me think about your comment:

> for mankind to flourish the negatives must be suppressed and the positives enhanced.

This, to me, shows a profound misunderstanding of taoist teachings. Nothing should be forced or suppressed, that is antithetical to wu wei or any idea of balance/equilibrium.

And I know you were referring to just the phyisical discomfort of nuclear submarine sailors, but that's the whole point, they may have some abilities that are close to those of a monk, like focus and concentration and adapation, but the wisdom is severely lacking. If you dedicate your life energy to work on a nuclear submarine, which has as its purpose to launch retaliatory strikes in an all out nuclear conflict, what does that say about your wisdom?

And wisdom is the main thing we should take away from all these teachings. The meditation, calmness, focus etc...those are all secondary products.

This is my understanding, and the gripe i have is with westerners using eastern philosophy to "improve their productivity" or "become better leaders", that is not the point and in my opinion close to blasphemy. And so is comparing soldiers to monks IMHO.

Read my other comment here first - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49098238

> Nothing should be forced or suppressed, that is antithetical to wu wei or any idea of balance/equilibrium.

Your understanding of balance/equilibrium is not quite correct. There is a concept called "Egoless Action" in Hindu Philosophies. Every living being is always and continuously engaged in action, defined as state changes in Mental/Verbal/Physical (note all three) domains. Activity is synonymous with Life itself. But a wise-man/monk/yogi trains to do this "egolessly" i.e. without reference to gain/loss for his "personal self". Because all action impinges on the external environment there is always change i.e. things vary with some getting enhanced while others get suppressed. This then gets back to you as "Karma" (i.e. the fruits of the action which nobody can escape) since we and the external environment are two parts of the universal whole. This is why you are advised to focus on "Right Action" i.e. that which is in accordance with "Dharma". The vast majority of people are "normal" (i.e. selfish and egoistic) and therefore engage in all sorts of activities which result in both good and bad karma and thus suffer happiness or unhappiness accordingly. The monk/yogi understands the difference and acts egolessly to break out of the "cycle of samsara" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa%E1%B9%83s%C4%81ra) and thus achieves mental equanimity, freedom from extremes and is said to be in balance/equilibrium w.r.t. the world.

"Wu Wei" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_wei) explains the same idea in a different form.

> but the wisdom is severely lacking. If you dedicate your life energy to work on a nuclear submarine, which has as its purpose to launch retaliatory strikes in an all out nuclear conflict, what does that say about your wisdom? And wisdom is the main thing we should take away from all these teachings. The meditation, calmness, focus etc...those are all secondary products.

Your idea of "Wisdom" here is not quite right. Wisdom is the ability to make the "Right Decision" in any environment at all times and engage in "Right Action" appropriate to that environment and instant. It involves all Moral(personal)/Ethical(societal)/Practical issues and concerns. In the case of a nuclear sub, the practical reason is acting as a deterrent to support the ethical reason of protecting society which is acceptable to an individual moral sense. Hence my point about "righteous and just war".

> This is my understanding, and the gripe i have is with westerners using eastern philosophy to "improve their productivity" or "become better leaders", that is not the point and in my opinion close to blasphemy.

This is exactly the wrong way to think about Philosophy. Philosophy is the most practical of all disciplines since its goal is to help us live and flourish in this society and world. There are many ways of doing it depending on your chosen "worldview" but there are some absolutes which crosscut all of them. The main thing is not to get lost in "other-worldly" ideas (which is the main problem with most people) but apply it correctly to our everyday lives.

For example, there is no external heaven vs. hell but merely mental states where you experience/ruminate on good vs bad thoughts/feelings/emotions. Everything is only the "Mind" and its various manifestations. The techniques developed to control/manage/modify/transform the mind by the monks/yogis are very practical and should be used in your everyday life whatever your goals might be. The problem you are talking about is the charlatans/hucksters in the west who with zero/half-baked knowledge of the above are bent on exploiting the ignorant populace. The solution is to study/educate yourself and share it with others.

Thanks for your response.

In your first paragraph you conflate hinduism, buddhism and taoism. I don't know enough about hinduism but I find the taosim/buddhism connection problematic. They are 2 different philosophies with different cosmologies and ethics, that did merge over the course of many centuries into chan and then zen buddhism, which has again another set of ethics (that may support your views on "righteous violence" slightly more). From my understanding Daoism is essentially amoral, it describes how to align yourself to nature, it doesn't prescribe moral duties. The Dao itself is not benevolent, it treats every thing and every being with the same indifference.

I think the main theme of the Dao De Jing is precisely Wu Wei, non action, spontaneity. The nature of the ruler could also include the use of violence "to maintain order" or the nature of the soldier to kill the enemy (although even in the Dao De Jing weapons are seen as ominous symbols and war as a last resort).

Buddhism, on the other hand, is much more aimed at teaching ethics. The first precept is to refrain from killing or harming any living being, which should be enough to end this discussion :)

You seem to conflate the "egolessness" of an attained monk to that of a dutiful sailor. If acting without ego were the main point of Buddhism then living such an egoless life where one can press a button to launch a trident missile could lead to nirvana. I find that unlikely. The main point (in Buddhism, not Daoism) is not to act egolessly, it is to act righteously. Buddhist ethical conduct is very clear on this: right action, right speech, and right livelihood. Working on a nuclear submarine, launching nuclear missiles, directly or indirectly, or for a perceived "good cause" is still wrong action and wrong livelihood.

> In the case of a nuclear sub, the practical reason is acting as a deterrent to support the ethical reason of protecting society which is acceptable to an individual moral sense.

The Buddha is very clear about the cycle of violence, and I am not sure what could describe it more poignantly than the absurdity of mutually assured destruction.

> you can take that same framework/discipline/practice and adapt it to your own chosen goal viz.

The fact that, for instance, zen buddhism was coopted by samurai does not mean that buddhism allows killing, it just means that a powerful ruling caste distorted spiritual teachings to maintain their power, this happened in every part of the world and at any time in history. And it's exactly what the Buddha warned against when teaching about right livelihood and right action.

First off, let me point out that you are on a tangent here and not on the topic we started with. I was pointing to how philosophical/psychological/physiological practices from various religions/philosophies can be adapted to any purpose including warfare. Specifically i also pointed to the dichotomy within the philosophies regarding "Dharma vs. Adharma" (simplistically Good vs. Evil)) and how they condone violence under specific circumstances. This does not mean that a warrior is trying to become a Monk/Yogi (whose goals are different) but only that philosophical ideas and training techniques of the latter are adapted by the former for his station in life.

> In your first paragraph you conflate hinduism, buddhism and taoism.

No, i am not conflating them but pointing to parallels and similarities.

> I find the taosim/buddhism connection problematic. They are 2 different philosophies with different cosmologies and ethics, that did merge over the course of many centuries into chan and then zen buddhism, which has again another set of ethics (that may support your views on "righteous violence" slightly more).

Taoism and Buddhism did not merge into any one school. Chan and its Derivative Zen Buddhism do not have Taoist elements but are derived from Mahayana (and some Vajrayana) Buddhism. But because Taoism, Buddhism and Confucianism coexisted in China, many used practices from all three traditions. A very good example is the work Caigentan aka "Vegetable Root Discourses" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caigentan A good translation can be found under the title "Master of the Three Ways: Reflections of a Chinese Sage on Living a Satisfying Life" by William Scott Wilson.

> I think the main theme of the Dao De Jing is precisely Wu Wei, non action, spontaneity. The nature of the ruler could also include the use of violence "to maintain order" or the nature of the soldier to kill the enemy (although even in the Dao De Jing weapons are seen as ominous symbols and war as a last resort).

"Wu Wei" is often translated as "effortless action" which is exactly what is meant by "egoless action" i had explained earlier. When the ego (i.e. I/me/myself) is removed from the equation, all action becomes spontaneous and free-flowing because you no longer have any preferences (good or bad) and simply do based on immediate needs and circumstances.

> Buddhism, on the other hand, is much more aimed at teaching ethics. The first precept is to refrain from killing or harming any living being, which should be enough to end this discussion :)

No. That is a very simplistic and wrong reading of Buddhism. You have completely missed all the nuances involved. There is a well known story "Bodhisattva Ship Captain: Compassionate Killing as Skillful Means" from the Upayakauśalya Sutra (Sutra of Skillful Means, T.310), where the Buddha reveals that intention, not outward form alone, determine the moral nature of an act. The Bodhisattva kills one man to save 500 others. Read it here - https://www.twobuddhas.org/post/compassion-beyond-violence-t...

> You seem to conflate the "egolessness" of an attained monk to that of a dutiful sailor. If acting without ego were the main point of Buddhism then living such an egoless life where one can press a button to launch a trident missile could lead to nirvana. I find that unlikely. The main point (in Buddhism, not Daoism) is not to act egolessly, it is to act righteously. Buddhist ethical conduct is very clear on this: right action, right speech, and right livelihood. Working on a nuclear submarine, launching nuclear missiles, directly or indirectly, or for a perceived "good cause" is still wrong action and wrong livelihood.

Again, your understanding is all wrong. You can only act righteously only when you are egoless (called letting go of self-grasping in Buddhism). The Buddhist "Noble Eightfold Path" is designed to precisely cultivate egolessness (compare with Ashtanga Yoga stages given earlier). A warrior faced with being killed or to kill can use this same egoless attitude to do his duty effectively.

> The Buddha is very clear about the cycle of violence, and I am not sure what could describe it more poignantly than the absurdity of mutually assured destruction.

The "Cycle of Samsara" includes violence. Hindu/Buddhist traditions teach you to break out of this cycle at an individual level i.e. all dichotomies like Good vs. Evil, Right vs. Wrong etc. lose their meaning and you learn to cope with everything with equanimity. It does not mean that the external world has given up on violence but that you have modified your state of mind to accept it as part of existence itself. But because violence is inimical to human flourishing you have to control it and hence you designate some people in the society (i.e. Military and Warriors) to take care of it for societal stability.

> The fact that, for instance, zen buddhism was coopted by samurai does not mean that buddhism allows killing, it just means that a powerful ruling caste distorted spiritual teachings to maintain their power, this happened in every part of the world and at any time in history. And it's exactly what the Buddha warned against when teaching about right livelihood and right action.

This is exactly your wrong understanding which i pointed to in the beginning. A Warrior is not trying to be a Monk/Yogi since their goals are different. He is adapting their very effective practices to his station in life so that he can do his duty effectively. To understand this better see the book When Buddhists Attack: The Curious Relationship Between Zen and the Martial Arts by Jeffrey Mann - https://www.tuttlepublishing.com/japan/when-buddhists-attack...

> First off, let me point out that you are on a tangent here and not on the topic we started with.

I don't think I am, my initial comment was pointing out the flaw in your reasoning that a monk and a nuclear sub sailor share philosophical traits.

> I was pointing to how philosophies can be adapted to any purpose including warfare.

That is not quite what you did, or perhaps I misunderstood, but you said that nuclear sub sailors share philosophical, psychological and physiological characteristics with hardcore monks. I granted you the physiological part, and perhaps even the mental fortitude, but in no way do the two share a philosophy. And regardless, adapting a philosophy that fundamentally says "do not kill" (not "it's ok to kill under certain circumstances") for killing is inherently wrong action.

> No, i am not conflating them but pointing to parallels and similarities.

Sorry but you countered my arguments on wu wei by talking about hindu practices that have nothing to do with it, and a link to the wu wei wiki.

> Taoism and Buddhism did not merge into any one school

merged may be the wrong word, but buddhism was significantly influenced by taoism when it arrived to china, as well as confucianism to a lesser degree.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chan_Buddhism#Introduction_of_...

> "Wu Wei" is often translated as "effortless action"

Wu is literally a negation and Wei means acting. Further the famous saying 無為無不為 literally means "By not acting there is nothing left undone". Not acting here means effortless action only in that it describes a natural (therefore effortless) action. It means to act in accordance to ones nature, not to force yourself to do something against your nature (not sure how spending months in a nuclear sub to launch atomic bombs as a deterrent is in anyones nature but thats another point). A famous example: when Zhuangzi tells the story of being asked to become a counselor to the king, he did not simply go along because he was egoless and could do any action effortlessy, he told the kings emissaries to look at the turtle in the mud and asked whether that turtle is happier rolling in the mud or if it would be happier being used in the court for some ritual. Then he told the emisarries to go away and kick rocks, explaining that he also wants to roll in the mud. How does this apply in any way to egoless duty bound action? It's much closer to anarchical defiance of authority!

> That is a very simplistic and wrong reading of Buddhism.

It is meant to be simple, understandable by ignorant lay people and kings alike. There is a reason this is the very first precept, and by dismissing it and condoning the use of violence I think you are making a grave mistake, because you clearly are very literate but are missing the first, fundamental, inescapable teaching of the Buddha and trying to justify going against it. By the way the Boddhisatva in the ship fully acknowledges the karmic consequences of his actions, and accepts them, knowing they are unskillful. No wonder that story is of the Buddha before he was fully enlightened.

> A warrior faced with being killed or to kill can use this same egoless attitude to do his duty effectively.

Even if bandits should rip you apart limb by limb you should not have an ounce of anger or ill will towards them. How a soldier can perform his duties "egolessly" is another question, hate and dehumanization of the enemy is instilled into soldiers from the very beginning of their training. Soldiers need to be dehumanized and dehumanize the enemy to perform their duties. Why is it that so many come home broken, commit suicide etc, is that a life in accordance with the Dhamma or is it misery? And furthermore, assuming meditation practices can help them not come home broken, and continue killing "egolessly" (i doubt that is even possible unless one is a psychopath or otherwise mentally ill), what will be the karmic retribution? Rebirth in a higher plane because they reached deep levels of Samadhi or rebirth in a hell realm because they killed people? I think the latter is much more likely, both metaphorically and literally (meaning that even meditating soldiers will feel misery, and be reborn in hell if it exists - this is literally what the Buddha says happens to those who deal in arms and warfare, any modern pragmatic rationalization is just that).

> A Warrior is not trying to be a Monk/Yogi since their goals are different.

I never said they are trying to be, I pointed out the flaw in your comment that philosophically a nuclear sub sailor and a monk can not and should not be compared.

Are there monks teaching and practicing adharma? Where does the Buddha condone violence or killing?

Your question itself is wrong.

The Buddha taught Non-Violence not Pacifism - https://www.buddhistinquiry.org/article/the-buddha-taught-no...

In Hindu (eg. Mahabharata) and Buddhist (eg. Jataka tales/Counsel to Kings) traditions, you are allowed to use Adharma temporarily as a last resort to re-establish Dharma itself. You cannot escape the Karma thus generated but it is condoned and accepted as a necessity.

My other comments in this thread has already elaborated on this.

Since you linked to a Goenka tradition follower: in Goenkas evening talks he mentions the anecdote of a student who was suffering physically and mentally and could not find the cause of his suffering in western medicine, when questioned by Goenka it turns out the man worked for a defense contractor calculating trajectories of balistic missiles. Goenka responds that the man can meditate as much as he wants but he will not find peace while engaged in work that enables mass destruction. And even worse, meditation without right livelihood can even deepen the delusion by providing psychological comfort for unethical actions.

If meditation/concentration becomes a tool to make unethical work feel OK it's just self-deception, quite the opposite of "brushing the dust from the mirror".

If someone has a high degree of concentration, a strong mind, but uses it, for instance, to build a new type of hypersonic missile, that is wrong action and wrong livelihood and that carries its karmic consequences. From my understanding that person will not attain liberation, even though they may reach states of focus that come near to those of an attained monk...

Again i do not know enough about Hinduism and the concept of Adharma but I would dare to guess that the choice to use unconventional means to restore Dharma should also be rooted in profound wisdom, and not some abstract idea of "protecting my country" via mutually assured destruction

First read my other comment here - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49111160

The Goenka anecdote (assuming it is true) is just a story. If the man wants to be a Buddhist Monk then of course his job is a great hindrance. But as i have pointed out repeatedly, if he wants to be part of the Military than the practices can be adapted to his duties with the end goal being different.

> If meditation/concentration becomes a tool to make unethical work feel OK it's just self-deception, quite the opposite of "brushing the dust from the mirror"

Again no, it is not self-deception but a clear-eyed view of reality and doing what must be done according to one's station in life aka "One's Dharma". This is elaborated famously in the great Hinduism text "The Bhagavad Gita" - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhagavad_Gita

> If someone has a high degree of concentration, a strong mind, but uses it, for instance, to build a new type of hypersonic missile, that is wrong action and wrong livelihood and that carries its karmic consequences. From my understanding that person will not attain liberation, even though they may reach states of focus that come near to those of an attained monk...

That person is not trying to be a monk but simply using their techniques to do his duties. There is always going to be karmic consequences but whether they affect his mentality or not depends on his levels of practice.

> Again i do not know enough about Hinduism and the concept of Adharma but I would dare to guess that the choice to use unconventional means to restore Dharma should also be rooted in profound wisdom, and not some abstract idea of "protecting my country" via mutually assured destruction

I have already pointed out the definition of Wisdom and how that is to be used to establish Dharma over Adharma. They are both very practical concepts since the "Right Action" happens in the "Real World".