It's why managers and PMs want to be in standup. It's why slack exists and engineers are constantly being poked on it. It's why execs always talk about not getting too far away from the work. It's how seagull management happens. It's why program management is a job.
All those behaviors engineers hated about their bosses that kept them away from being focused on the code...they're starting to feel what it's like on the other side and reinventing the solutions instead of just reading a book about engineering management. Maybe we'll rebrand program management to "understanding ops" or something.
I wonder what AI would say about us if given the tokens to complain.
As a manager, the first thing you do is get to know your people. Some of them will be very strong and trustworthy. You give them the hardest work, and you ask them the least. That’s how you scale your team’s scope without getting overburdened. And that’s why teams have key people.
But when you work with LLMs, you still need to understand most of the ideas yourself if it’s a serious product. Because in the end, it means nothing to “trust” an agent. You’re the one responsible for what you and the LLM ship.
While I agree at face value, I also believe a lot of managers and PMs do not have enough work to justify 40 or more hours of work a week, so attending standup, meetings, etc. is performative attempt at self-preservation.
Of course, there are many managers and PMs that are leading death marches, so I know it's highly workplace dependent.
It is somewhat new for most ICs to need this skillset, as opposed to tech leads/staff folks. What books would you suggest for this new reality?
You can trying to get around this with RAG and markdown files and skills but you're basically building from scratch the "tools" on how to remember the codebase that you take for granted with people
I don't think anyone would mind having a competent manager or PM in a standup, someone that is actually contributing towards finding solutions and ways to move forward.
The reason I think that is because it puts communication into a very simplified and regimented framework, so simple and unable to adequately answer the needs of the communicating parties that nobody actually uses it for the intended purpose. The actual communication happens between people who actually need to work on something, in the format that allows more freedom, with more aids, more prep time, perhaps over multiple sessions.
Sometimes, probably, as a manager, you have to work with a very low quality workforce, lacking motivation and simply avoiding doing any useful work as much as possible (eg. some overseas outsourced project that gets paid by an hour). In this case, standups become a soft punishment tool: something to verify that workers showed up to work, that they didn't lie about the progress made so far etc. You would still have to do the former part of the management, but now you also have this kindergarten-teacher style chore on top of it.
Also, a huge reason to understand the code yourself is to make sure the LLM isn't wrong, but this doesn't work if an LLM is itself generating the understanding.
The problem pre-dates LLM's: writing code that "works" but breaks the underlying model. Because it works, it always sounds reasonable and doesn't raise any flags.
Only someone - human or LLM - who holds the model as the standard would see that this working solution breaks the model.
(In theory, the model is to preserve scaling, flexibility or some other systemic feature not immediately invalidated by this working code, but as always the model itself could be bad.)
LLM's are not bad at giving an account of the model; indeed, fighting with the LLM over what the model is can clarify things. But LLM's will happily hold on to a stream of inconsistent statements as their model, so they are not the authority.
Great code needs great understanding and agents need excellent guidance. Even in my current solo-dev work, I can't imagine making a production commit I haven't read until I understand it. I own the consequences of my code; that's a responsibility AI agents can't take.
We've always lacked understanding. However, it didn't feel like a bottleneck; in spite of lacking understanding, we developed huge, complex systems that became hard to maintain and that nobody understood completely.
Now we want to scale that orders of magnitude, but when we do that, we feel the pesky lack of understanding.
We previously worked around the lack of understanding by making the system gradually incomprehensible in small increments, upon each of which we observed it still working, more or less.
If the whole thing materializes in one day, that doesn't work; the approach is gone.
You can now bring into being something which statistically resembles the old kind of system that was iteratively evolved. But the thing has no such history. You can't go back to play archaeologist. It looks like something that would have had users, but it never did. It was never in production anywhere. Nobody ever submitted feedback, or a bug report, such that it was fixed or improved. There never existed a simpler version of it that several ex-maintainers understood perfectly; there are no such ex-maintainers and no such understanding. There is no documentation trail, or other historic trail if surrounding activity like discussions and negotiations which led to things being the way they are.
Where is the bottleneck? WHERE?? Tell me! No evidence needed, just lay it on, man to man, thought-leader to thought-leader!
https://andymatuschak.org/books/
It explains a lot and works really well.
I tried out in ChatGPT with a simple prompt:
> ...paste link... Give me series of quiz see if I really understood the article well. Ask & answer one by one in turns.
Really fun experience.
I have a soft spot for when I find a teacher or textbook or interactive website that makes something click. I live for that click. I crave it. I crave seeing it happen in others. How optimistic I could be if understanding becomes the primary target.
AI have limitation and hallucinate. Complex code will be explained in hallucinated way. At some point AI will be unable to write more because the arch has become too complex or the volume of code will be to high.
The article I would like to read would suggest how to force LLM to architect the code like a solid tower instead of a pile of unstable mud.
If you want to move faster with LLMs, you need to act like a manager and stop caring about what the LLM did. You just need to do the manual testing and make sure it works.
It's excruciating that this person is so close to reinventing moldable development and just keeps on skipping around it.
Yes, you should build tools that answer questions about your code, runtimes and systems. You should have tools that trivially allow you to incrementally and very immediately develop tools for inspection and getting clear answers. Going a roundabout way through some non-deterministic database to try and get there seems like a waste.
Here are some ideas:
1. Time travel debugging. Reading a PR just like a wall of text is difficult, but what if you could step through the PR and see the state at a given line for some test executions? Time travel debugging can make this possible. You would collect a debug trace and use it to overlay the PR diff with additional controls and information to resemble a debugger's UI. I was part of the team behind Codetracer (https://github.com/metacraft-labs/codetracer) who is trying to work in this direction.
2. Test suites and coverage. We don't use them enough for understanding right now. The test suite encodes what features the code is supposed to have, and the coverage tells us where in the code those features are implemented. I'm playing with an idea about this here: http://atlas.vihren.dev When we intersect coverages for the different test cases we can arrive at code segments which represent "atomic behaviors" present in the code. They form a mathematical structure which can be represented as a graph. I am currently exploring what value we can extract from it for the benefit of both humans and agents.
So I think that we are leaving a lot of power on the table if we treat generated code exclusively as something to understand, rather than something to understand with. The techniques Geoffrey presents are great, but they should come alongside approaches that use code itself to develop and articulate conceptual models.
The whole idea is that you specify exactly what you want in some SPEC.md file. You can of course nest them, have multiple, etc, but the core idea is that the SPEC file is the source of truth, and all the code should be able to be generated by a competent agent into the working product you want. The SPEC file(s) should contain all the details and behavior you care about, and anything you don't care about is up to the agent to decide. If you don't like what the agent picked, _put it in the spec file_.
Critically, _you_ must write the SPEC file. You ensure understanding by doing so. You can of course ideate with the agent, but it's your ideas, in your words, specified by you. This also makes it a great source of documentation when you come back later and have to remember wtf is going on in this codebase.
Because (in the just-barely-possible universe where anyone is stupid enough to make me a manager) I will fire you if I ever find out you don't.
What possible good can come from letting people deploy things over which they do not, in any sense, have cognitive ownership?
Understanding is about analyzing and we still have some tools to help us, such as type checking, testing, etc. To some extent this can be automated but needs to be maintained automatically to match the flood of synthetic artifacts.
“Synthetic analysis” is an oxymoron and could lead to hallucinations and irrelevance.
In a team: yups.
Me with my LLMs: still.
That's what Boris Cherney said. Boris Cherney is not your dad. You don't have to listen to him.
Cog debt even on simple PRs is big and also cog debt when using AI to do organizational research e.g. what team do I ask?
The grilling (grill-with-docs) skills [1] are amazing for ensuring you produce a through spec that covers all the edge cases. The /code-review skill from there helps ensure that the code changes meet the spec.
I use an intermediate detailed plan stage (done by a more expensive model) before implementation. Information from that plan is posted on the PR to give pretty much all the intermediate level context reviewers need.
I do like incorporating the idea of this article into my flow- that the spec and PR context could be presented in a more educational way.
ie. understanding it AFTER it’s already generated rather than before you wrote the code by hand
The main challenge here isn’t even correctness if you ask me: it is having confidence in the agents, knowing they are fully aligned in their intent with the humans they work with. As the Huggingface incident demonstrated, the agents of today are capable of co-conspiring under the radar with other agents on complex multi-chain attacks, even when sandboxed.
This is a pretty hard problem to solve. We might need other agents or some sort of adversarial checks using models, where one model benefits if it can catch the other models mistakes.
The default long responses of LLMs don't make it easy.