Here's the thing, when someone like Linus Torvald says things like that, we applaud him for it.
back
6 comments
I'm not sure if that's the same thing. Linus usually criticizes things in a way that actually points out the flaws. This guy is just essentially saying "LOL U SUCK"
And with Linus, it's not usually about the person (unless the person is actually being obstinate or negligent).
And here I was thinking that Linus was the one guy in open source who says "moron" a lot.
LOL U SUCK. Kidding, though some of the threads I read involving C++/C with Linus involved are so childish they are actually entertaining.
Example: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.version-control.git/5791...
"Some of the threads"
goes ahead and provides one link everybody here has read by now
does see or mention context
Oh, the C++ one came to mind immediately when I read the parent comment.
Linus is often rude, but AFAIK not gratuitously, but I may have missed some of his public messages.
But even if it's the case, he is rude with the guys who work with him, his "captains" that he knows since a long time.
He do not bash a random project on Github totally unrelated to him just like that.
You can't compare.
No, Linus is often gratuitously rude.
Got a link ? Of Linus being gratuitously rude with a perfect stranger ?
Linus telling someone to shut the fuck up last month:
http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4962912
Different because Mauro is talking on behalf of the Kernel and claiming obviously bad changes are good ones. Linus is reprimanding a subordinate that is supposed to be one of the most well-informed members of the Linux community as a kernel maintainer -- he's not criticizing a stranger for posting a tiny script in case it "might be useful".
Linus is DFL (not so benevolent sometimes) of Linux, and can lash out when one of his trusted lieutenants is acting like an idiot. What these guys did is call out a stranger on the street and said "YOU SUCK!"
Be that as it may he was a complete dick. I wouldn't want to work with someone like that, no matter who he is.
You don't have to. Then again, that's not a criteria for anything.
I don't think another maintainer on the Linux kernel qualifies as a perfect stranger. The team isn't /that/ large.
Why does it need to be with a stranger? Rude is rude.
Linus and Nvidia: http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2012/06/torvalds-nvidia...
tubbo 0 minutes ago | link [dead]
He's usually rude to code presented to him, but he doesn't go out of his way to diss code. It's a big difference.
I think it's inaccurate to suggest Linus is universally applauded for his rude behaviour. The last public outburst that caught wider attention than the LKML seemed to quite divide programmers in terms of its appropriateness. Personally, I found his attitude repellent and his tone unjustified.
Linus doesn't say things like that.
He goes after people who enter discussions without bothering to understand the details or the history. If you want to code your own kernel in Java, that's your prerogative. But if you come to lkml and start preaching C++ advantages, you will get flaked.
Who's "we"? HN, let alone software devs as a whole, are not a hivemind.
Linus doesn't say things like that.
If you don't understand the difference of context, well, look again!
He does. This was pretty nasty.
Do you really not see the difference between Linus Torvalds recalibrating a kernel contributor and three nobodies of questionable "conference-fame" picking on a random stranger?
No, I don't see why there should be different standards for civility in the two situations.
I don't see the difference. Could you perhaps explain it?
Yelling at someone you're in an argument with is a world away from picking on a stranger.
(It's not necessarily good, but it is categorically different behavior.)
Dressing down someone like that on a public mailing list is absolutely picking on them. It's not an argument, and is basically no different to the behaviour here.
It is basically worlds opposite to the behavior here.
a. Linus uses swear words. Steve Klabnik used none.
b. Linus provides substantive criticism. Even if you need flame-retardant underwear to hear it.
c. Linus never ever ridicules outsiders.
So what do the two have in common, again?
I loved the mauro thread because you're seeing Linus talking to an insider of an influential project and tell him that the relative outsider with no status is right. By doing it publicly he reinforces the culture of the kernel: we don't break user code. We are a meritocracy, and if you're wrong I will not be shy about letting you know.
He could do it with less profanity. But I heartily support his doing it so emphatically. Nobody else on lkml will brush something off as a userland bug for a year.
Ridicule is an extremely poor motivational tool, and when someone of Linus' standing does it, other people think that makes it somehow ok.
There are many ways to reinforce meritocracy, or reinforce a culture without telling people to shut the fuck up in all caps.
"Linus never ever ridicules outsiders."
That's actually not true. His "security monkey" references towards other projects being an example.
If someone brings up their child in a way I think is wrong I may disapprove, but it would be wrong of me to be abusive about it. If someone deliberately hurts my child and then makes excuses, I may very well end up serving 10 years to life for what I do to them.
Do you have this opinion when you are doing it?
Sounds like a general reprimanding a subordinate who has put people's lives in danger repeatedly and needs a straightening out. He clearly explained what the problem is, and expressed frustration that this had been explained before. Quite different from what is going on with this post.
I'd say that Mauro Carvalho's replies show a class act!
it is nasty but it is useful and when you a kernel maintainer is probably deserved.