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Ask HN: What's the best way for a foreigner to improve English to a great level?

by simonebrunozzi·12y ago·42 comments·view on hn ↗
My wife and I are Italian, and we live in San Francisco. She's trying to find a job but feels stuck because her English is not good enough (I think she's at an acceptable level, but clearly she can't speak or listen as good as a mother tongue). She's looking for advice on what's the best way to dramatically improve it in 4 months, 25 hours a week or so. Thanks!
42 comments
As a qualified, practising teacher of English as a foreign language, I guess I should be able to help.

For competence, once you've got past the basics of grammar, it's mostly about memory. Create a database of words, phrases, and example sentences, and use some kind of Spaced Repetition System (e.g. Anki) to keep reviewing them.

Fluency is harder. First, what does it mean to be fluent?

Last time you were in a shop and the shopkeeper handed you your change, what did you say?

Thank you.

Did you plan ahead? Did you think, "Oh heck. The shop keeper's just given me some change. What should I say now?" Of course not. The words just came to your lips. You were following a script that you'd internalised at a subconscious level. That's fluency.

So you need to internalise more scripts. How are you going to do that? Learn them. Seriously ... that's all there is to it. Just memorise huge chunks of text. Songs, movies, passages from your English textbook, and so on.

In particular, try shadowing. (I.e. speaking in synchrony with the audio version.) At first, do it with the printed version in front of you. Then do it purely from memory. Try exaggerating the accent when you do it, too. It may sound ridiculous, but to native speakers it will sound better than your normal Italian accent.

You'll see the benefits of all this hard work when you're in conversation. Fragments of memorised dialogue will pop into your head exactly when you need them, just like when you said Thank you. to the cashier.

By the way, children do this instinctively. That's why they love to watch the same movie, or hear the same story, over and over again.

It's nice to hear this from a professional. I am an English speaker who speaks a couple foreign languages. When I am alone in my car, I talk to myself in foreign languages or have mock conversations. I repeat them over and over again. Then in a real conversation, I mix and match large phrases from my vault of mock conversations rather than translate word for word.
Wow. When the NSA gets around to listening to their smartphone-recorded tapes of you, they're going to be very, very worried.

(Yes, "tape" is a colloquialism - I realize they probably use solid state media.)

Actually, one of the most common things I repeat to myself is the first chapter of the Quran (it's only a paragraph) just because I think it sounds lovely when lyrically recited in arabic. So their tapes probably sound something like me talking to myself in French, answering myself in Spanish, and then bursting into a minute of Quranic recitation...

Before going full force into computer programming, I was mainly interested in linguistics, and threw myself into learning languages and traveling. So I wouldn't be surprised if my digital communications set off various automated flags, since I chat with friends around the world (Europe, China, Latin America, some in the Arab world, notably Saudi Arabia) on a daily basis in ~4 languages. I hope they take me off their lists when they realize we are just making small talk or discussing English grammar or {{ their language }}'s grammar.

Try exaggerating the accent when you do it, too. It may sound ridiculous, but to native speakers it will sound better than your normal Italian accent.

Someone gave me great advice once, they said to pronounce French with a French accent. When you think about it, it's obvious why that results in good spoken French.

I'd recommend taking an intensive ESL course, which you presumably have many options for at local universities. (My wife, who is Japanese, is similarly looking into options.)

If that isn't an option:

For listening comprehension, and eventually speaking, practice "shadowing." Have her listen to interest-appropriate TV shows and say exactly what the speaker is saying, in real time. (You can also do this exercise with transcription.) It will be maddeningly difficult at first, but with literally hours a day of doing it, she will see radical gains.

This is a large part of the training for professional translators/interpreters. In my experience it works very well. It is also some of the most frustrating work I've ever done.

Thanks patio11 (you're one of my favorite HN commenters, BTW :D). I found out that Japanese and Italian, as languages, have a lot in common in terms of pronunciation, and IT and JP speaking people have similar issues when trying to learn English. I will definitively tell my wife to look into this.
I've been in this situation in another language: nothing beats (1) reading and (2) listening and (3) forcing yourself to speak.

It sounds like (3) may be a problem for your wife because of her lack of confidence. Forcing herself to speak English, as if there is no option, will make the difference.

If you two were to speak English to each other, so that she could literally stay in English-only mode all day, every day, that would help. Don't call mom. Does she read a newspaper? Read the Chronicle or NY Times or Guardian. Listen to the radio? Listen to NPR, or BBC. Etc.

BTW, do not set as a goal to speak American-accented perfectly idiomatic English. That will never happen, and is not necessary or even desirable. Italian accents rock.

We will always keep "some" Italian accent, don't worry :)
Accent can be a big perceptive issues for non-native speakers. It'd be worth it to look for an accent coach. Even if the rest of her English isn't perfect, being clearly understood for the rest of it might be worth it.
The first thing to do is to always be listening to people speaking English. Try to be aware of how they pronounce things and compare them to how you do it. Be aware of little things like verb conjugations. People will still understand you if you do it wrong but you'll definitely stand out as a foreigner. Also, don't talk too fast.

In your case this won't work, but try to stay away from other speakers of your native language. I see students at UC Berkeley who end up getting roommates from their same country. This is a very bad idea because they won't be forced to adapt their brain to the new language. I always found that having a girlfriend who speaks the language I'm trying to learn was a good idea.

Reading books will help your vocabulary but it probably won't help your understanding of spoken language. What I did when I was living in a foreign country trying to learn the language was to watch children's TV shows. Once I was able to speak and understand at a 5 year old's level I felt like I was ready to expand my horizons.

What's the best way for a foreigner to improve English to a great level?

I wrote a FAQ comment about that a while ago that became one of my most popular ever comments. I'll link to that here rather than repeat all the text again.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6302816

Good luck!

Thanks tokenadult!
Go onto Meetup.com and see if there are any relevant meetups in the San Francisco area for people looking to practice English. Alternatively, just go to any Meetup for a topic she's interested in (e.g. crafts, health, etc.) and she can talk and interact with the people there.

I would recommend that she volunteer somewhere (a non-profit or a clinic) where she'd be talking to people for most of the day. The best way to improve is just by practicing. I think that'll be more efficient and effective than any of these language sites/products.

This is one situation where watching TV as a background activity might actually be helpful. The best way to learn English is to surround yourself with English as much as possible. So, read, watch TV, talk to people, and to speak English at home as much as possible.

On the other hand, I bet her English is actually better than she thinks it is. I've met a lot of non-native English speakers who have unnecessarily apologized for perfectly intelligible (if accented) English.

As a former ESL teacher, I think TV can be helpful but it's better to be very selective about which shows you watch. Pick shows that have a lot of dialogue in English.

Older TV shows tend to be more dialogue-centric. If you have the TV Land channel, I'd suggest: MASH, All in the Family, I Love Lucy, The Honeymooners, The Dick Van Dyke Show, &c.

Contemporary shows that would be good for this purpose might be: Modern Family, NCIS, Mad Men, Big Bang Theory, Parks and Recreation, Arrested Development, Parenthood (advanced: lots of simultaneous talking).

Good point. I think I might actually avoid comedies at first though, because it can be hard to get the jokes.
Only practice can take her English at the desired level somewhat quickly. I'm trilingual with a forth language under my belt and in my opinion she has to spend as much time as possible with native English speakers (or with people who speak English very well). Unfortunately you aren't a native speaker so more than likely she's exposed to Italian more than English. This is a major hurdle. Reading is good. Listening is great but nothing beats discussing. One-on-one conversation classes could be great. You could look for people willing to practice Italian in exchange for English practice. Check "meetup"s in your region so that you can meet people and discuss in English (in whatever topic that is of interest to you). There's no doubt that she has to study grammar and vocabulary. She has to read a lot (It is important to use tools/apps/dictionaries that can speak the searched words). But I would concentrate heavily on English communication.
Talk to yourself (in your head or out loud, whatever floats your boat) and think in English. Do this constantly when you're walking alone, doing the dishes, folding laundry, etc. It's a good way to practice and get yourself used to not having to rely on your mother tongue during downtime when you cannot do focused study/practice.
I believe the human brain is best capable of picking up a language by being subjected to it. Hence I prefer reading and speaking over artificial practice, at least beyond bootstrap level.

Here's what worked for me:

1. Get an acceptable grasp using traditional methods (you are already here).

2. Read about three books while looking up every single word you don't understand. This may be easier when reading on a tablet. Warning: This will be slow going. Perhaps pick some favourite books you've already read.

3. Read another twenty or so books, but you shouldn't have to use the dictionary very often. Concentrate on flow.

This will take care of your vocabulary and grammar. To master conversational English and pronunciation you have to speak to people, but the foundation you built above will help.

Four months is an ambitious goal if you're looking for complete fluency, but you should see solid improvements.

Even though I had my personal interest to learn English, back when internet was not common, or not very accessible due to dialup, i would buy English newspapers and study them, and always keep a dictionary with them.

However, that was bit silly and a lot more time consuming.

The best to improve English is to be part of a community (an online forum). it's up to you which you want to join. Only join the one which interests you. Get involved in lengthy debates and discussiona, I know it's not cool, but just for the sake of learning and improving your English.

If you follow up above advice, your English skills will skyrocket in a very short time compared to traditional methods.

If you have friends or coworkers who are native speakers, ask them to please correct you when you say something that isn't perfectly fluent.

Otherwise most people will ignore your mistakes, rather than risk insulting you.

I'll give you my honest suggestion? Do not waste 4 months learning the language. Just let her go to work. At work, she will interact with all kinds of people which effectively exposes her to the language. That way she will learn the language more quickly and naturally rather than coaching or lessons or whatever.

I live in Saudi Arabia and as a non Arab I had a very difficult time speaking Arabic. I too spent a lot of time trying to learn the language before hand but it's nowhere effective to what you learn in a real situation with people.

I moved to the US 15 years ago. I thought my English was good (A+ in every exam I ever took), but I was sadly mistaken. Thankfully it didn't prevent me from getting jobs.

It took me about 2-3 years to get truly fluent. Get out there, speak English with everyone, get yourself in uncomfortable situations, immerse yourself in the language completely. That's the only way to really get it.

I think Pitarou's answer is spot on, if you need to improve the language skills in a short time though.

Movies are a great supplementary source to actual ESL-type classes. It's difficult for language classes to teach turns of phrases, idioms, regional dialects, etc. Movies with subtitles are great -- Even better if you can find movies that offer subtitle files in both English and Italian. VLC can take multiple subtitle files and let you toggle pretty easily between the two languages.

(Set up hotkeys to toggle subtitle files, to go back 15 or 30 seconds. Space bar pauses.)

There's a story of a Korean boy who learned English after coming to the United States by watching Simpsons episodes with the subtitles on. He'd write down every word / sentence that he didn't understand, find it's meaning and learn it. Then when the same episode was aired again later in the week, he'd watch it again to make sure that he understood.
Quick update for everybody: my wife is really grateful for all the advice, and thanks you all!! I am also very grateful for all your help.
She wants to focus on speaking and listening in a short time frame, so she needs to do both of those things – exclusively.

Materials: - DVDs of several TV programs with multiple seasons (make them subject relevant if she has a specific subject-matter goal) - Several regular talk radio/podcasts - You. Apparently, you know English. Stop speaking to her in anything but English. Just stop.

Method: - The goal here is to bludgeon the language faculty of your wife's brain with English. It'll feel kinda uncomfortable, but you want to create an experience that so surrounds her with English that the brain is forced to do work it's already good at – that is, figuring out language. - So, every day, listen to talk radio. It creates the same experience as being dropped into a conversation in a foreign country where you don't know the language. She just needs to try to follow the conversation. This has the added benefit of not taking place in a bar or cafe, with a lot of back noise. Encourage her to take note of words that get repeated a lot, to look them up, and to listen again, but don't waste her time with exercises that answer questions about the content, b/c the content is irrelevant. - Next, pick a TV series and start watching. Have your wife choose a character to 'follow'. She is to repeat everything that character says, in as close to the same accent as it was produced. Most TV shows are about 30-60 minutes, so have her do this with a few shows, just make sure the shows feature a few characters that do a lot of talking, so that she get's more practice. - Lastly, go out together, a lot. Meet people. Language exists between people first and foremost, so the best way to build on her practice is in the field. Beforehand, she can prepare the 20 or so important things that she might want to say/talk about, and discuss them with you. Then, take her to an event to meet people and abandon her to fend for herself in a conversation.

All this sounds kinda ego-crushing, but it really is the fastest way to get to a high level of speaking/listening fluency. Think about this, a language class will be populated with other people learning English, whereas a bar will be filled with chatty people. A class will have her sitting, passively absorbing a lesson with occasional practice, whereas the methods described above involve active processes. Finally, if you cease to provide an Italian-language safe zone, her brain will naturally begin to adjust. It's an uncomfortable process, but I achieved a high degree of spoken/listening fluency with both German and Turkish this way, as a native English speaker. Compared to two years of classroom Arabic, and I can hardly say my name.

Good luck. Let us know how it goes.

I have always believed that best way to learn a new language is to spend time with it. Read as much as you can. Watch subtitled movies and you will instinctively pick up on pronounciation.

Above all speak and write it. As you spend more time with it you will gain confidence.

When I'm alone I try to describe my surroundings in another language, It great for identifying adjectives and verbs that I don't already know. Coupled with a good dictionary app it really helps fill in the blanks.
1. Surround yourself with native speakers and spend as much time as you can with them carrying on daily conversations. 2. Stop worrying about your accent or the fact that people won't always understand you.
First identify what your weakness is (vocabulary and idioms, grammar, accent, comprehension). Then do something specific to improve on that: for instance for vocabulary the best is to read books or articles.
Play Cards Against Humanity with a couple understanding, native English-speaking friends. My girlfriend's sister's boyfriend is Swiss, and CAH has helped him learn a number idioms rather quickly.
We just bought it a few weeks ago! We'll use it more often :)
Read books out loud. My English, both speech and vocabulary, improved dramatically after I spent weeks sitting outside on the balcony reading Lord of the Rings out loud to myself.
Take notes at all times; every time there's a word or phrase she should write it down and google it later. Learn idiomatic phrases and "think" in English.
Watch netflix videos w/ subtitles on. Mimic lead character's speech. Record your speech and compare it, repeat. It always worked for me.
Listen to music she loves along with the lyrics. I learned Brazilian Portuguese just like that.
I will assume that fluency here means spoken comprehension and speaking so you are easily understood by a vast majority of the population. In my data, these are both harder than reading comprehension for english. Reading comprehension also seems far more prevalent than spoken comprehension and fluency.

In my travels through language learning I have come upon two dominant models for language acquisition:

1- The academic model - learning about phonemes, IPA, SOV (Subject-Object-Verb) versus SVO etc. Somewhere along the line the hope is that everything will click and you will develop good pronunciation, comprehension and the rest. This works for some people but the vast majority do not end up with basic comprehension or even decent pronunciation. Fluency is rare and often a land far far away.

2- Mimicry - This is how infants acquire languages and also how we get our accents. This model almost invariably works - witness the billions of infants who speak the language(s) of the lands they were born into without any training in IPA. This is also why it is hard to learn english from a native english speaker who lacks formal training in imparting language education. Ditto learning to catch frisbees from dogs.

Mimicry has two steps namely discernment and replication. In discernment, just like in learning to play music one has to "hear" it before one can replicate it. The process below will help you learn to discern the sound. Once you get proficient at hearing it you can then try to replicate it. Again just like learning to play music, you now try to replicate the sound you have learnt to discern.

Quite a few commenters have suggested following along to tv/radio/movies in the english language to grok enunciation, syntax and vocabulary. FWIW, this is stellar advice which will serve you better than most language learning packages.

Here is a pragmatic way to go about the above advice:

#1 Voice of America (VOA) news readers are the closest to an American version of the BBC's newscasters "received english" accents. VOA has a great language learning resource where their newscasters read out news stories in carefully enunciated english: http://learningenglish.voanews.com/.

#2 Pick a news item for example "English Level 1 --> "Remembering Nelson Mandela..." and download the mp3 file from "Play or download..."

#3 Download VLC player: http://www.videolan.org/vlc/index.html.

#4 Play the downloaded mp3 and read the article aloud trying to replicate the enunciation. VLC player comes in handy wherein under playback you can slow down the playback speed to really understand the enunciation and replicate it. Stop and replay as often as needed. In some versions of VLC player like on Android you might have to turn on equalization in VLC to overcome the distortion when you slow-dow/speed-up the playback.

As indicated by many commenters, doing this for 1-2 hours/day will get you results in a very short period. Short period here would mean weeks to months. If you do try this please post the results of your process and what worked and did not work for you.

First idea: http://www.duolingo.com/ — there's Italian to English.
Duolingo is great to start learning a new language, not to become proficient.