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by brandonb·12y ago·view on hn ↗
A bunch of the folks in this article are Y Combinator or Google alumni, and we're giving a talk on Saving HealthCare.gov next Thursday in SF for anyone who's interested:

http://www.eventbrite.com/e/saving-healthcaregov-tickets-118...

Let us know if you have questions! Or if you want to help.

UPDATE: we seem to be sold out. Trying to find a larger venue. In the meantime, feel free to sign up on the waiting list and you'll get an email as soon as we find a room with more capacity.

11 comments
Not to start a political flame war, but...

How do you, as technologically savvy people who are in a better position than most to understand the grave transgressions of the NSA, reconcile your support of an administration that has shown complete disregard for our privacy and civil liberties (specifically within the scope of the NSA/Snowden scandal) with your inherent duty, as an engineer of powerful systems, to above all further the public good? As a subtext, what are your thoughts on continuing to further said administration's political aims in one arena while they restrict your rights and livelihood* in another?

Furthermore, and more on topic, what steps have you taken to place privacy concerns at the forefront when creating a service that consumes vast amounts of personal and medical information from millions of people?

Last, as someone who has been "on the inside" do you see corruption as a large problem with government procurement? To what extent did corruption create the situation that you were called in to fix with the original HealthCare.gov fiasco?

*assuming, of course, that the NSA/Snowden revelations have hurt US tech interests

Edit: Mods, if you disapprove of this comment feel free to delete it. That said, I think these are some important questions that need to be asked.

You can both support building a tool to give people healthcare and be against government surveillance. Most people are able to compartmentalize their support or opposition for various government policies and do not see the doing of one thing they don't like as a reason not to support any other thing the government does.
That's kind of my question though, is how do you compartmentalize that? This may be a personal character flaw, but I definitely wouldn't be able to.

The NSA revelations aren't just some small political transgressions, this is a rather world shaking development that shows we have been subject to vast, malicious (i.e. not for our good but for the good of others), and illegal surveillance that has steadily eroded many of our God given* rights and liberties. On top of that, this is something the administration has wholeheartedly supported and gotten in bed with, and shows no signs of turning back (beyond token political acts that will in the end accomplish very little, if anything).

So, wouldn't you question further actions by someone who has proven themselves to act against you so wholeheartedly? Myself, while I normally would have been overjoyed at a healthcare overhaul in this country, am now extremely suspicious of the motivations behind it. Why would this administration act in our favor when they have been acting against us for so long?

Thus, my question to brandonb :)

*as per the Declaration of Independence

Edit: I would say a good analogy would be: Assuming I were Charlie Brown, at what point do I begin to doubt Lucy's psychiatric advice when she's pulled the football out from under me so many times?

The government isn't one thing. It might be worth doing some reading on systems thinking, for instance some of the writing by Donella Meadows. People inhabit a government system and they either set boundaries for themselves, or have those boundaries asserted onto them; boundaries between their area of influence and other areas of the system they consider out of bounds. If they didn't, no one would be able to focus and get things done.

People often think that the failings of a system are chiefly because of the motivations of the actors in the system. But what's more accurate is that the failings are often because of the structure of the system, and the inhabitants often don't feel they have the ability to change the structure.

The least effective way to change the behavior of a system is to twiddle the various buttons and knobs that each inhabitant has ready access to. The most effective way to change the behavior of a system is to change the overall goal of the system, which would necessitate a complete restructuring.

So that's why it is easy to believe that various NSA wrongdoings aren't entirely because of nefarious motivations (although that is probably part of it), and very much driven by system structure (log and analyze data) that simply weren't "checked" as their technological tools and abilities increased over time. What many of us have failed to realize is that our own personal security has been a form of security-through-obscurity in the past. We can put personal data up on a website and not tell anyone, and before search spiders, it might have stayed private. But we can't expect such a website to stay private these days, because of how technology has increased. It's the same with our private data, and how our browsing habits can be mined to create freakishly accurate personal profiles. There was never any privacy protection there to begin with other than obscurity, and we just convinced ourselves it was there by believing in social mores that hadn't been challenged until technology increased too much.

Meanwhile, the health system was about constructing an entirely new structure/system for health insurance, benefits, and penalties.

So... I wouldn't say it is a matter of compartmentalizing. It's more a matter of appreciating that the government is a huge collection of disparate systems and motivations, and that there can be simultaneous breakdowns and successes.

> The NSA revelations aren't just some small political transgressions, this is a rather world shaking development that shows we have been subject to vast, malicious (i.e. not for our good but for the good of others)

When was it shown that this was not for our good but for the good of others? I think you may be confusing the ends and the means. If the means turned out to not be good for us, that does not mean the ends they were trying to achieve weren't for our good. It just means they failed.

Well... I'm pragmatically there's things I'm going to agree with and things I'm going to disagree with for every. single. administration. So the choices are either working within the context of the system that exists today, or anarchy. Working within the context of the system includes reinforcing the things that can positively affect people's lives (healthcare) and fighting things that can negative affect them (spying). Fighting "the system" as a whole is paramount to advocating anarchy.
If you fell so strongly about it, how can you remain a citizen? Thought so.
technically it's not giving healthcare to anyone... but rather providing a means to charge for a base-level. the healthcare law doesn't give any free handout's, even to people who can't afford the "affordable" fees the gov't charges for the base-level healthcare.

(just saying, it matters to be correct on this topic)

If everyone tries to reconcile everything the government does, no good person would ever work for the government.

If you want to change it, change it from the inside.

Thats is what they are doing.

People can protest on the streets or online but changing the government from the inside will be more effective.

"Changing it from the inside" is a carrot dangled in front of people to make them think that they can effect change by becoming a cog in the machine. First off, cogs don't change the machine specifically because they're limited in their function.

The people who join the government to try to change it from the inside are the same people who, five years later, complain that their hands are tied and they can't effect meaningful change for the better and must continue along the well-trodden path of obedience. I think Obama is a great example here, but I'm sure there are many others.

The only possible way to change a government is from the inside. Even if you have a violent revolution, what happens next? The leaders of the revolt become the leaders on the inside of the new government.

Government is not like a company you can boycott; it is an unavoidable attribute of human society. The operative questions are how are you participating in it to achieve your aims, and how effectively.

I did not say "Changing from the inside" works all the time. There's no perfect solution.

If these YC alums, etc decide they don't want to be a "cog in the machine", how else can they have improved the healthcare web site?

This is probably the best reply I've gotten (I've asked this outside of this thread before as well), and my response would be to ask where the line is when one's efforts stop changing the machine (to abstract the discussion away from "government", not to insult it) and begins furthering it's interests. I honestly don't know the answer, and so I ask inflammatory questions to further my understanding of the issue.
While I can see huge ethical concerns were this project related to the NSA, I don't think you can necessarily force that association here. While I agree with your frustration with the administration, especially with regards to surveillance and civil rights, I also would like to see the ACA do well and lead to a better life for most Americans. I don't think its wrong to want to work on solving this problem (healthcare) while disagreeing with other actions of the government, as the above poster is working on something that will directly help millions of americans. I see improving healthcare as a separate issue from the NSA scandals, and I think that, in refusing to help with fixing healthcare.gov, you are harming millions of poor and needy Americans without actually accomplishing much of anything.
I'm not the person you asked, but there seem to be quite a few things wrong with the assumptions underlying this question.

> an administration that has shown complete disregard for our privacy and civil liberties

Is it really true that this is the case for this administration more so than other administrations? Admittedly the increase in opportunity for surveillance has been huge in the last couple decades so the quality of the comparison degrades as you go further back in time, but what the NSA has been doing seems entirely in line with what they've been doing for decades. To be clear, what they've been doing for decades is really, really shitty and I'm glad people are finally outraged, but then wouldn't your view require basically boycotting working with any administration ever? I don't think it's an unreasonable proposition to not hold hostage policies that are potentially worthy just for a single (however significant) issue that you disagree with.

> your support of an administration

> continuing to further said administration's political aims

This leads to me to my next point: it seems like your comment assumes that this was done purely out of a desire to help a political figure, instead of considering the possibility that the volunteers may think that Healthcare.gov is a worthy goal or at least that its brokenness is negatively affecting the American people (I don't think there's any disagreement across the political spectrum on this latter point). That's an awfully cynically political way to look at the world, and I don't think it's accurate to assume that that viewpoint is shared by the volunteers. I think it's probably a safe assumption that the volunteers acted more out of a desire to see hc.gov working than to see Obama's political capital enhanced per se.

Do you quit your job when your boss does something you don't like? The government will live on beyond this administration and hopefully the site will as well. I don't know what privacy you can expect when they hold the keys, my expectation would be 0. Finally, government procurement is always littered with inefficiency and occasionally large scale corruption. These questions really answer themselves.

Now if only you had asked something about technology.

>Do you quit your job when your boss does something you don't like?

False equivalence. The correct analogy would be "Do you quit your job when your company does something you don't like?"

Many people would answer yes to that.

Here is something that'll blow your mind: lots of technologically savvy people don't think surveillance is a policy so bad that it destroys the governments overall credibility. Some even don't see a problem with it.
Thus my, admittedly loaded, question :)
If you're starting from the assumption that everyone else who is "technologically savvy" is obviously in agreement with you, then you're making a large mistake in your reasoning somewhere.

Smart people often disagree about things in this world, including in particular whether the actions of the NSA show "complete disregard for our privacy and civil liberties" and whether they're justified or not.

Also, half the idea of democracy is to compromise with other people. Thinking that people shouldn't do any work for the government because they don't agree with some of the actions of that government is ridiculous.

To make the coupling explicit, what assurance do we have that information given to HealthCare.gov won't be illegally accessed by employees at NSA and other three-letter agencies?
But how would you ever make government better without getting involved? I mean unless you are talking about scrapping the existing system and replacing it, you must be involved in order to change it.
Pretty much everything you wrote is complete nonsense. There's no relation between healthcare and spying. People don't put their medical information into the system (hello! no more denials for pre-existing conditions). "Corrupt"? Really? Then you try to shame the folks for participating but even acknowledge that inanity with your caveat. Pretty shameful all the way around.
Did you redesign it from scratch or were you able to leverage any existing code?

Were the original developers developing against a (mostly) static spec, or were the terms constantly being changed up until October of last year?

Are there any plans to carry this forward and redesign some of the state exchanges?

Mostly from scratch.

Cannot speak directly to experience of original developers, but I could see moving target as being an issue.

Would love to see our code open sourced someday and be useful to others, especially state exchanges, but that is a long-term goal. Currently we are laser-focused on getting everything ready to ship by next open enrollment.

would be curious to get some answers as-to why this wasn't the path to building the website all along?

I mean, the original site was awarded to CGI Inc without any biding process... and they aren't even a US company. Why did we not have US professionals/companies build this thing the first go-round?

I could have imagined a High-Tech All-Stars sort of thing... each major US tech company sends 1 or 2 representatives to collaborate and work together to build this new long-lasting piece of national infrastructure.

Even if you don't release it until after a successful open enrollment, please record video! And please, during Q&A, remind the speakers to repeat the question so it's captured on audio! Or capture the audio from the active audience microphone!
Why does it matter if some of the people are Google alumni? That doesn't mean anything anymore, the company employs over 10,000 engineers. It's like saying that you have IBM alumni.
I see it's sold out now. Will there be any possibility of a second event or will the rest of us also be able to find out how we can help after the event happens?
Yes — we're trying to find a larger venue. For now, sign up for the waitlist and you'll get an email once we've found something larger!
Could you please consider posting videos of the talk? A local group on software engineering did a talk I could not attend but I am interested.
Any chance we could live stream this in Boulder?
Unfortunately we're not doing any recordings -- it's hard to be candid and recorded for all history at the same time. :(
This is an absolutely baffling comment. Particularly for a community (hackers) that value openness and transparency above pretty much all else. What in the world are you talking about, to a general public audience, that can't be heard by the rest of the world?
It's not hard, it just requires honesty and integrity.

Check's already cashed, right?

You're talking about a government website and not recording? I am a little worried that you don't think you can be candid about what is being done with our tax money.
Define: "Hard".

Technologically "hard" or Politically "hard"

?

If you can't get professional to record the event, just launch a Google Hangout broadcast on the speaker's computer so the sldie is recorded, add a microphone to him/her under $20 and you good to go. If the speaker is close to the computer just use the built-in microphone.
Understandable. It's only the face and future of public heath security for the nation, there's no real reason why everybody should know what's going on behind the scenes.
I understand your concern, but how about just a similarly controlled space in Boulder? There are a few to choose from, each with adequate equipment and personnel.
Damn, what luck. Gonna be in town just for next week, I definitely must attend this.
Are these devs working on healthcare.gov being paid or volunteering?
Are Tor users going to be blocked from accessing the new site also?
So cool! Just got my ticket.