back

by david927·17y ago·view on hn ↗
Can I apologize? My daughter was pulling at me and I started to skim. I'll read it in length, give it time, and then post again. Mea culpa.
1 comments
Ok, I'm back and I have time now.

In the real world, wealth is (except for a few specialists like thieves and speculators) something you have to create, not something that's distributed by Daddy.

That makes it sounds like those who are wealthy created that wealth, and those who did not, did not create wealth. That would require a perfect meritocracy. Do you really believe that what we live in, in this world? Of the Forbes 400, around 70% inherited more than a million or came from wealthy backgrounds.[1] (So for the vast majority, they actually, quite literally, got it from Daddy.)

You get paid by doing or making something people want, and those who make more money are often simply better at doing what people want. Top actors make a lot more money than B-list actors.

Are top actors better actors than B-list? Sometimes, but often not. They usually were in more popular films. And that's often a consequence of what other films came out when it opened, the editor, the opening-day weather, etc. There are a thousand factors that go into making a film and an actor doesn't have a lot of control over them when signing on to a project.

It's called luck. Actors are on an upward spiral or a downward spiral and it almost never has anything to do with their acting or "giving people what they want". It would be nice if the world was less complex place, but it's not. So are they getting paid vastly more because they're worth it, or because there can only be so many top actors and they happen to be one. Natural monopolies are more than just dams and bridges, and for the fortunate in them, there's nothing meritocratic about it.

When we say that one kind of work is overpaid and another underpaid, what are we really saying? In a free market, prices are determined by what buyers want.

But in a free market, with no oversight, we would get dangerous chemicals in our food, kids pajamas that explode from a spark, etc. You know all those crazy regulations we have? A lot of them are because companies tried to violate those exact rules. A market may say it's OK to sneak imflammable chemicals into those pajamas. A market may say it's OK that a clerk can make $2/hour -- but we can then say, no, that's not enough for the clerk to live on. You can vote with how you spend your money, but you can also vote at the polls. They're both valid ways of getting things done.

The difference is like that between hard and soft skills. Managing a group of great hard-skill guys who can't work together and can't be managed is high-performance/low-control. A bunch of guys who communicate and work well together, but don't get anything done, and you have high-control/low-performance. The trick is to mix hard and soft skills to get both. Both market and social concerns are valid and need to be monitored, tuned. A baseball player is payed a lot? People are willing to pay a lot to see him. Good for him; he got dollar votes. A woman is working two part-time minimum wage jobs because neither company wants to make her full-time to avoid paying benefits and she still can't feed her family? Not good for her, or us to allow it; we need to vote at the polls.

One often hears a policy criticized on the grounds that it would increase the income gap between rich and poor. As if it were an axiom that this would be bad.

At a certain extreme, in either direction, it can be devastating. I don't tink I have to defend that the "no income gap" is a calamity. But at a certain point the other way and you also get devastating results. It's a fine balance. With a large disparity in income, you get lower economic mobility and society as a whole suffers tremendously. It creates huge problems that are well documented and easy to see if you simply travel. There's been a lot of work done on this [2], and the best I can put simply is that if the gap gets too big, instead of increasing motivation it decreases it, much as with an extended duration of being unemployed.

You need rich people in your society not so much because in spending their money they create jobs, but because of what they have to do to get rich.

Again, you're fantasizing that this is all a meritocracy. Most wealthy people were born that way. We all hear of large leaps of economic mobility based on merit, but that's unfortunately the exception. I'm not saying, "Don't let people get rich." I'm saying, "There is nothing that the incentive of $50 million at a 35% tax rate will give you that $50 million at 45% won't." And yet if that 10% is spent on education and other enablers of economic mobility, your pool of Henry Fords who can build that tractor just got bigger.

[1] http://www.faireconomy.org/press_room/1997/born_on_third_bas...) [2] http://www.mentalhealth.org.uk/media/news-releases/news-rele...

And more: you talk about markets as if they're wise and efficient. I think you know better than that. Goldman Sachs takes huge risks, gets compensated, fails, gets bailed out by the working class citizens, goes on to pay an average salary of $700,000[1]. Is that what these people are worth? Yes, if the market says so? Do the tax-payers have a say? They should, if they're the ones "insuring" them.

New methods and technology in fishing have meant that we've been (nearly quite literally) sweeping the ocean. No one disputes that we're down below 10% of large fish stocks. The question is, if we stop now, will the fish be able to get back up again to self-sustaining levels? It's unkown. But we haven't stopped fishing/sweeping. Why? Because it's not a 100%, and as long as that's the case, the fishing industry is loathe to lose its income on a mere 'speculation'.

The free market is sometimes a bright child, and other times a petulant, special-needs brat. It is often shortsighted and cliquish. John Nash discovered this and corrected it, but we still are operating in the old mode of Smith thinking. You say that a CEO is worth 200-times an average worker because the markets say so, but that's not a Nash equilibrium. You can have it for a while but it won't hold for that very reason. Extreme wealth distribution in either direction (very equal or very unequal) is not a Nash equilibrium and, until it become one, the center won't hold.

It's you, Paul, not these children/students you chide in your essay, who's operating under a poor model.

[1] http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32809328/ns/business-the_new_yor...

Goldman Sachs takes huge risks, gets compensated, fails, gets bailed out by the working class citizens, goes on to pay an average salary of $700,000[1]. Is that what these people are worth? Yes, if the market says so? Do the tax-payers have a say? They should, if they're the ones "insuring" them.

While I don't disagree that this is disturbing... it's not really a failure of markets so much as it's a failure of government.

I'm not one to bash on 'big business' and I understand the need to bail out the banking system to prevent cascading failures, but you have to admit things like this show a remarkable level of regulatory and legislative 'capture' on the part of certain business interests.

But back to the essay... when I read it, my overall take was that he was trying to point out that wealth is not a zero sum game. (Sometimes money can be a zero sum game, but wealth is not merely money.) I'd have to agree that too many people see everything as zero sum.

As an example, look at a hot button issue like immigration in the US. Many people see that in zero sum terms... the more immigrants that come, the more jobs they take from the natives. But that fails to see the other side of the equation. Immigrant labor is why you can buy cheap vegetables from California, it's why you can build a house cheaply and in only a couple months. Yes, this is detrimental to the former producers of those goods/services, but it's also beneficial to the consumers of those goods and services.

Anyway, I'm not advocating unrestricted immigration or even trying to make that the topic of this discussion. I was just trying to point out how a zero sum viewpoint doesn't tell the whole story.