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In order to stop having refugees, one must stop having wars, like the one we have in Syria. The NATO supported the 'rebels' while the Russians supported the 'authoritarian regime'. Of course depending on where you get your news from rebels could be named 'terrorists' or 'freedom fighters' and what not.
In between a few million people die, lose everything and so forth. Entire generations vanished. The NATO countries and Russia should take care of these refugees. They should pay for shelter and social re-abilitation. Even host at least half of them... Of course the best solution would be to stop war, but people are weak and stupid.
In Greece many people help these refugees, actively. Others hate them because especially in Athens the number of 'aliens' is overwhelming. Hence, Golden Dawn got 6% in 2012 by running an anti-immigrant campaign.
Generally speaking throughout Europe, anti-immigration sentiment is growing stronger. Switzerland is about to close borders to everyone else, the UK, Slovakia, Poland and the Czech Republic want stricter immigration control. France is openly against Muslims (due to the recent events, Charlie Hedbo, etc.).
It's like living in 1932 all over again.
> France is openly against Muslims (due to the recent events, Charlie Hedbo, etc.).
What?
There is certainly a growing anti-islamism (political movement who supports using the Qran (Muslim's sacred book) as a social and political framework), and lots of frustrations the infamous binationals from Algeria (holders of french and Algerian citizenships) that decided to massacre people for drawings.
There has been also some shock to see lots of support for Charlie Hebdo's terrorists among muslim communities online. During the aftermath of the event, a hashtag on twitter was among the top of the country (#Che - in Arabic "Che" means "you deserved it").
I would not call France "anti-Muslim", especially when 10% of the population is of Arabic descent, and Muslim. Seriously, the US has barely 1% of its population that is muslim. France has no lessons to receive to anyone concerning how it handles its muslim majority. The cultural pressure is unparalleled.
Disclosure: French expat of Algerian descent - immigrated to France in the 90s.
How would you call that? [1]
[1] http://www.rt.com/news/224395-muslim-incidents-rise-france/
I do deny that there are rising tensions. However, before I continue, I would like to highlight that those numbers are coming from a non-gov that have a pretty infamous record, as well as strong ties with Islam fundamentalism circles.
- Their definition of "hate-crime" is pretty blurry. For example, in 2007 a civil employee asked a muslim woman who was fully veiled to take off her niqab in order to verify her identity. This was considered a "hate crime". There is a plethora of similar stories.
- They do not disclose their methodology or data.
- They hold some seriously backward views on society. For example, they consider any feminist organization to be "islamophobic" de facto. There have been plenty of controversies raised by their leadership for being openly antisemite. Accusing the government "of favoring the jews".
If you read french, more at https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectif_contre_l%27islamopho..., there has been some very interesting analysis made by investigation journalist from Le Monde (left) as well.
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Now, even ignoring the fact that those numbers are almost certainly made up. I do not think you can really generalize that to the whole country. It is really confusing for an outsider, but refugees, educated muslims and muslims living in the suburbs are pretty much very distinct groups in the eyes of most people.
No one is pissed at someone for being a muslim, what generates anger and frustration are the ones who: - commit crimes - try to pull their religion on everyone else.
I would not say that France is openly against muslims. There isn't one muslim community. Plenty of people from north-african ancestry, who happen to have been raised by a muslim family are doing just fine. I have friends, lived in a nice neighborhood in Paris. I was invited by my neighbors, and so on.
I am now living in SF, it's a bit different although I haven't had any major issues. I got some stares from time to time, but it's probably because I walk funny.
This whole refugee crisis is hard for me to accept.
My whole family ended up in the West in an earlier crisis, and they tell us about how they rented crappy boats, almost died, almost got pirated, etc, trying to get across the water.
They also talk about the generosity they met once they got to their respective countries. There's stories about various strangers who volunteered to put up entire families in their own houses, helped them with the language, getting a job, studying, childcare, and so on.
A few weeks ago I was driving through Calais, and there were so many migrants on the road they spilled onto the opposite lane. There's stories about people getting killed clinging on to the bottoms of trucks, people dying of asphyxiation in containers, people getting run over by the train. People dying in overfilled boats.
-How did attitudes change so much that we can no longer accept that someone would like to change an accident of birth?
-Why do we hide behind refugee status (and there are real refugess from war these days, esp in Turkey) when we know that people did not choose to be born in an economic hellhole?
-Are we really happy to let capital move freely but keep the labor stuck where it is cheapest?
EDIT:
So, before I got attacked for not feeding, housing, and educating thousands of migrants on my own, I was going to add this:
- Why is there such reluctance to spread the burden? The numbers arriving in Italy and Greece are orders of magnitude higher that those living in the shanty in Calais, hoping to come to the UK. It was 140K crossing the Med according to the BBC in 2014. There's 350M people in Europe, and several of the rich states are actually shrinking.
>-How did attitudes change so much that we can no longer accept that someone would like to change an accident of birth?
Citizenship is valuable. It is wealth in the form of economic opportunities, security, stability and all other amnesties afforded to citizens of developed countries. That wealth was built over centuries by the ancestors of the current citizens.
Are you proposing that we should start handing citizenship away for free? That would essentially amount to theft from the current citizens.
The current migrant situation is unfortunate but simply eliminating borders or doing away with citizenship is not the answer.
And I really disagree with the "accident of birth" bit. First of all it was not really an accident. The parents did make a conscious choice however irresponsible it might have been. Secondly all property is pretty much a matter of an "accident of birth" and citizenship is no less valuable than the seven digit inheritance that your parents might leave you.
The attitude issue is based on fear. I think people in the first world prefer to be generous, and that fear of losing what they have is what causes the friction. Whether we're talking about jobs, pensions, welfare benefits, etc.
In many European countries (it's in no way exclusively an European concern mind you) a fear of losing cultural identity is also an extremely common issue. It plays into the fear of change.
Modern welfare states are extraordinarily expensive, and require careful fiscal management. You can have a mostly well functioning one like Germany or Sweden, or you can have a disaster like numerous other examples. The fear (emphasis that that isn't to say it's the reality of the situation necessarily) is ending up in the disaster category, that the system will get overwhelmed and cuts will be required, lowering the standard of living for everyone.
My family also emigrated to the West in the 90s, fleeing war and misery. I empathize with the refugees, but I do not think that Europe should let such a steady flow of people into its territory.
Far right is rising all over Europe, for a reason. A significant number of Europeans do not recognize the country they have been growing up in. The cultural/demographic pressure is a real issue that is fueling far-right politicians' anti-migrants rhetoric.
In 2014, France alone has welcomed as many new immigrants on its territory as Canada. It is just not sustainable, and the longer we wait to face this sad reality the harsher the far right burst will be. Politicians need to listen to their citizens before they actually start to feel helpless/pissed off and vote for populist freaks.
Reactions vary. From what I've read, Greeks on the islands that are seeing a big influx of immigrants coming by boat from the Turkish coast have generally been treating immigrants well, or at least as well as limited resources allow. I gather that immigrants in Athens are not treated as well.
An article about the islands: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/08/greek-island-re...
I don't really mind letting a lot of people in who are willing and able to work. I mind letting people in who are going to receive the very generous welfare payments Denmark gives out, and which are part of the social contract since they never payed into the system.
I absolutely hate those who come here and turn to crime - want to come and work? Fine, show that you have a job and you can stay. Want to come and start a business? Excellent. Show that your are making money, you can stay.
Want to come and contribute to the fact that Denmark has the highest rate of burglaries in the EU? You can stay out.
There are some problems, but the large majority of immigrants to Denmark do work. In fact if you include both intra-EU and extra-EU immigrants, the work rates are higher for immigrants than for Danes. Non-EU immigrants and Danes work at almost exactly the same rates (~85%), while intra-EU immigrants work more (90%). From Eurostat: http://i.imgur.com/2vKqI7e.png
Its a self-fulfilling prophecy, though, isn't it? As long as the trope that "immigrants are all criminals" persists as a general meme, then those immigrants will have little choice in the broader social context than to commit crimes in order to survive.
If we treated the influx of immigrants from Syria into Europe as "future leaders and workers of a new Europe" instead of "a burden and liability for future generations", then perhaps we'd get a turnaround in the scene. For as long as we continue to project the idea that immigrants and refugees are a 'lower class of society', that is forever where they will stay.
In this, I see an opportunity - if only the governments would get out of the way and make it feasible to put this new work force to productive use. As a business owner, I'm quite happy to help my fellow human beings - and in the case of immigrants and refugees, I couldn't think of anything better than lifting someone out of that band of poverty by paying them to work, and increase their quality of life. Alas, prejudice against the poor keeps them poor.
This wave of immigrants comes in a very unfortunate moment when there is a high unemployment in lots of EU countries and lots of economic immigration inside EU. This makes the new immigrants perfect candidates for welfare or criminality, because lots of low skill jobs are already occupied by previous immigrants (from eastern Europe for example).
Those willing to work aren't exactly a blessing either, unless the country has a severe shortage of labour. As far as I know none of the western European countries are in such a situation.
>I don't really mind letting a lot of people in who are willing and able to work. I mind letting people in who are going to receive the very generous welfare payments Denmark gives out, and which are part of the social contract since they never payed into the system.
Quite a lot of locals have a negative balance vs the system. Doesn't it seem a bit arbitrary to leave it that way? How about a probation system... learn the language, get a job, limit the money you can take, and don't commit any crimes.
> Doesn't it seem a bit arbitrary to leave it that way?
It is not arbitrary. A country has obligations fundamentally only to its citizens. The whole sovereignty thing.
The whole notion of sovereignty in its current form is an accident of European history. The borders of the world can't be said to be much other than arbitrary, for huge pieces of it.
Seen another way, you could remove the citizenship of people who went negative. Then you'd be rid of your obligations.
If it sounds absurd, that's because it is.
This is the (new) Europe[1]. Unfortunately. Funny thing is that especially Poland, should know better, after the 2nd WW about 2.5 million Polaks emigrated for Germany (mainly) and other EU nations.
> A few weeks ago I was driving through Calais, and there were so many migrants on the road they spilled onto the opposite lane.
Did you stop to help any of them? If the answer is no - that answers all of your question.
On a longer note - observant Muslims just rub the Europeans the wrong way. Because they pit against each other 2 strongly held beliefs - religious freedom and women are totally equal - politically, sexually and everything else to men.
Until Islam reforms in Europe - it will only become worse. We tamed the Christian Church - but right now it seems that secularism is under attack.
You will see how better will be received (lets hope it does not get to it) refugees from Ukraine or Armenia or Georgia.
Let the downvotes begin ...
I upvoted you. I live in Sweden and used to live in Denmark. In both places the rise of right wing parties (Danske Folkeparti and Sverige Demokraterna) is precisely due to the conflicts between these two groups.
It isn't Islam that is the problem though. There are several Muslims, especially in Sweden that have integrated quite well. I can't put my finger on what it is that is a problem though. Indians by all means(I am one) don't integrate that well either (in clothes or social and religious habits) but they don't seem to receive that much vitriol. I feel the inequality of women is one reason for the negative reputation of Muslim residents(I can't find precise stats online right now but the percentage of non-working Muslim women is much higher than in other religious groups) and the amount of children they have per family is more leading to more welfare[0].
[0] I don't have stats right now so I can't prove this but I can anecdotally prove it based on conversations with many Swedes and Danes.
As an Indian living in Europe, I disagree with you about Indians not being integrated. Well, depends on which part TBH as Europe is so different depending on the direction. But I have no issues whatsoever in Ireland. and have friends from all over.
>I can't put my finger on what it is that is a problem though.
IMHO, the problem is language - i.e. immigrants speak theirs, and natives 'speak theirs'. Natives are unwilling to allow another language into their lives, whereas immigrants are forced to learn another language in order to survive - in both cases, it is a lot of work to learn a new language.
I wish it were compulsory to learn at least 2 foreign languages in European countries - sure, there is the defacto 'English as a second language' standard, which has produced a lot of tolerance in previously warring societies, it has to be admitted - but wouldn't it be great if we all were encouraged, somehow, to .. say .. learn Farsi .. as a means of solving the big European problem of integration, immigration, and internationalization? I mean, it really only makes sense for the Western European powers to promote polyglotism given our current circumstances. I think I'd be happier about immigration if my kids grew up learning the language of the immigrants in our land, alongside their native tongue, anyway .. I'll be doing my best to encourage my kids to learn languages of the immigrants during the course of their lives.
If you're moving to live in a new country, it seems pretty sensible that you should have to learn the language of your new home.
Sure, you should 'have to' .. anything less would be tantamount to accepting a major cultural shift akin to warfare.
But then again, I think there is a lot of room for people to accept social responsibility for the human issue of immigration, and I think any social system which encourages people to learn languages outside their own is bound to produce a more tolerant, resilient society. Right now, so much hate and prejudice is predicated on the assumption that "they don't speak our language" .. if, for example, it were considered highly illegal to ever go to war against someone whose language you cannot speak, this would be a better state of affairs. "Kill no man whose language you have not learned" might be the mantra I'm going for here ..
This completely captures the crux of the problems. Also, Europe is extremely safe and liberal as compared to US and even a small crime goes a long way in making people take note.
As a Brit and someone who leans to the left, I've no issue with us as a society taking people in who require aid but that has to come with conditions attached primarily that they respect the culture they want to settle in.
That said I've also no interest in taking more people in who think that intolerance of their intolerance is wrong, enough of this already, the liberals (at least that part of it I don't consider myself a part of) have been grappling with this issue for a while "How do you respect the beliefs of people who don't respect your beliefs" and they still don't have a clear answer.
Here in the UK we've had numerous cases of child sexual abuse (rape, sexual slavery, passing girls around up to 60 men and some shit I don't ever want to read again) against vulnerable (overwhelmingly white) girls perpetrated by what the media euphemistically calls "asian" men (but in reality have been way over 90% Muslim's of Pakistani descent), the councils, authorities and the police knew this was happening but where so worried about the political fallout of been seen to target (even though they where committing the crime) members of the Muslim Pakistani community they backed off and basically looked the other way (even when members of that community where publicly speaking out about the problem!).
1400 vulnerable often in care white girls in Rotherham alone.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploit...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derby_sex_gang
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_sex_gang
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_sex_gang
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telford_sex_gang
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peterborough_sex_abuse_case
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banbury_sex_gang
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aylesbury_sex_gang
Estimates of the numbers abused runs into the thousands if not tens of thousands.
I number amongst my friends many people of indian and pakistani descent and they are just the same as anyone else in that they are appalled about this stuff - to the extent they are angry that the authorities didn't crack down on it, they know they get tarred with the same brush and that is tragic.
I lean as left as there is to go, but reality hits you at some point: There are neighborhoods in Athens where you can't walk at night because of Pakistani gangs. These neighborhoods voted for Golden Dawn because they supported them (by violently removing the Paki-gangs). Of course GD didn't stop at the gangs, they removed everyone who wasn't looking Greek enough.
You can't solve this problem by hosting people. You solve this problem by actively supporting anti-WAR campaings and removing from power parties who made/support wars.
All these Syrian refugees (God help them) who pass through Greece wanna go in central Europe and the UK. They do not intend to stay here (Greece). Some will stuck here, some will pass the borders... These were create by the NATO (Greece is part of the NATO and the UK is a strong member of the NATO).
That's why every time you hear someone talking about "attacking" a country in middle east, you should really think about where all these people will go...
And you are confident that these crimes are not just being reported but are in fact happening at a higher rate among brown people?
In the Rotherdam case police ignored reports of fear to be labeled racists ...
No idea, the figures are murky however I'm confident that if several hundred (or more - they where 'selling' them to a far wider group) white Christian men had raped and via organised trafficking abused several thousand Muslim girls it wouldn't have been left by the authorities for over a decade to fester.
In our efforts to appear tolerant we tolerate the intolerable, multiculturalism has failed, I saw a news report the other day that said more British born Muslims (out of 2.5 million) had gone to join Isis than had gone from Indonesia (205 million Muslims) - something is obviously very very wrong here.
> A few weeks ago I was driving through Calais, and there were so many migrants on the road they spilled onto the opposite lane.
> Did you stop to help any of them? If the answer is no - that answers all of your question.
Help them how exactly? They were going the opposite way to me. You do know that they armed with knives as well, right? I'm sure you'd stop too with your wife, baby, and personal belongings. Tut-tut.
Sorry but you are one of the first who have moral duty to help them. If you are one of those immigrants (or second generation) that do nothing but shame your hosts to help more immigrants to come in, then YOU are one of the reasons why immigrants are not welcome anymore.
Oh right. I'll go in my corner of shame now. You know, the one where I'm somehow responsible for all the world's evils and you aren't, because finger pointers are of course exempted. Mainly because the other shameful life-livers would get tired of them.
Like I said, where you are born is an accident of birth. You want to make me responsible not only for where I was born, but where my parents were born. You of course, being of noble birth, have nothing to be thankful for and nothing to contribute.
You should be ashamed. Accident of birth is a crazy idea. Everyone born in Africa is just an accident? Should they all be transplanted to the EU or USA? EU is already getting close to collapse with USA not far behind. Maybe as the last lights of the west blink out forever, you will understand your ignorance.
I would not stop. But I also don't pretend to care if they live or die. For me national borders are sacrosanct, so you have no good reason to break one.
But you gave the answer - a few generations ago people were not afraid. Now even people like you are afraid of them.
But if they carry knives and their first instinct is to stab any stranger that offers them help - why do we want them in Europe then :P
> For me national borders are sacrosanct, so you have no good reason to break one
National borders are fairly arbitrary and are being fought over all the time. Nations with more military power can obviously get away with occupation of land that is not 'theirs' (as if it is anyone's, but for arguments sake, let's talk about who was previously settled there).
I think the person who is trying to save his family from plight has more 'good reason' to break one than crusading governments.
What you're saying is you don't care if they live or die. Really? Your fellow human beings? You're happy for your elected officials to just leave things more or less in the current state?
Well, before the refugee crisis, people from many of same countries used to get to Europe by plane.
The above sentence does not apply to all them of course, but still one should ask himself why do they get here by boat now.
Take some countries where refugees are coming from. Just Nigeria itself has a population of 177 million.
Disregarding individual near term humanitary issues for a moment and looking at the big long term picture, it's not likely that a large portion of Nigerian people's lives can be improved by moving to Europe.
The most efficient way is probably to help it locally.
This is what organizations like the Gates foundation and also many development aid projects (not all) are aiming towards. Some for example boost entrepreneurship, where a larger portion of the value addition chain could be done locally before export (instead of just exporting raw materials etc).
It takes 1 Libya bombing to create a damage so big would take 1000x Gates foundations to heal.
The bigger problem is that average Joe doesn't give a sht. As long as the refugee/immigrant is not there, to get his job* he doesn't care. When he finally arrives and takes his job, instead of getting mad to the people who is exploiting the situation, he gets mad to the immigrant who can barely speak the language.
> The bigger problem is that average Joe doesn't give a sht. As long as the refugee/immigrant is not there, to get his job* he doesn't care. When he finally arrives and takes his job, instead of getting mad to the people who is exploiting the situation, he gets mad to the immigrant who can barely speak the language.
I think you dramatically underestimate the place cultural differences are taking in the growing frustration of the people of Europe. Three things:
* - Because racial statistics are forbidden in Europe, whenever someone complains that element from a certain group are causing problems their opinion is immediately dismissed as being racist. If you spend even a week in Paris, chances it will be hard for you to stay neutral and support that Muslims/Gipsies aren't committing more crimes than any other groups combined.
The problem is, people aren't oblivious to what happen around them. When some of your relatives/friends gets assaulted in the subway once by someone from north-african ancestry, it is a coincidence. Twice, it was bad luck. Third, something is going on.
* - More people complain that they do not want such a steady, and large immigraiton flow. Politicians, because they are either powerless or stubborn ignore the people -> Far right politicians, who have put secure borders and immigration quota at the DNA of their programs are on the rise.
Rinse, and repeat.
I don't know much about France, but in Denmark people definitely notice some groups' criminality more than others. There are basically two main groups that contribute a disproportionate amount of Denmark's crime: 1) poor immigrants, and 2) poor Danes. The media seems to like railing against #1 a lot more than #2, though. It's no longer politically incorrect to stereotype immigrants in general, but it's still taboo to stereotype poor, uneducated Danes; you'll be accused of being just an elite Copenhagener who looks down on "white trash".
Much of Denmark's violence (though there isn't a lot of violence) comes precisely where these two groups meet each other and get into fights, over for example controlling the drug trade. Shootouts between biker gangs (who are almost exclusively Danish) and immigrant gangs (who are obviously not) are some of the few times you will find an actual shooting in Denmark. If gangs of Danes are fighting gangs of immigrants over control of an illegal business, I personally blame both groups, not only the immigrants.
I think you have addressed the core of the issue.
Criminality isn't tied to race, or religion but to an individual's socio-economic background. Poor people are more likely to commit crimes than other. Maybe cultural factors can come into play, but probably in less significant proportions.
I do not think however that it is realistic to expect to integrate culturally AND economically that many people at once.
If I am right, it means that crimes committed by immigrants will rise even more (not because they are immigrants, but because they are poorer) causing even more frustration until we reach a breaking point, where people say "enough!".
I think this would be a tragedy.
> The problem is, people aren't oblivious to what happen around them. When some of your relatives/friends gets assaulted in the subway once by someone from north-african ancestry, it is a coincidence. Twice, it was bad luck. Third, something is going on.
I might have done so in my post unintentionally, but I agree with everything you wrote.
On that note, Europe has more than one waiting room these days. Malta and parts of Italy seem to be fulfilling a similar role for illegal migrants coming north from Africa, for example.
Don't forget whole of Libya :(